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 Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:57 pm
I've been reading about Litha, which has raised a few questions for me... mainly, how does the modern pagan wrap his/her head around traditions that make more sense in the context of a flat Earth?
Common elements in pagan beliefs include a rising/dying vegetation god, or a goddess who visits the realm of the dead for half the year, or summer and winter gods that battle each other for dominance, or the concept of the World Tree growing from the bottom of the underworld, into our world, and up into the realm of the gods, connecting the three.
Nowadays, most people won't argue that we have winter because the Earth tilts on its axis, and the side with the least amount of sunshine gets the cold end of the stick. The gods aren't dying, or going to the underworld (not in the literal sense - though, I suppose if you look at it the right way, Australia could be the 'underworld'); the planet's just following the path gravity has laid out.
So, what are your views on myths and traditions that... well, seem a little strange when you try to apply them to a round Earth?
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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:36 pm
Yay! Another fun question.
Well, first, I'll venture that all but one of the mythical cycles you cite date from times when people didn't have the scientific knowledge we have today. Did the Greeks really believe that Persephone re-emerging from the Underworld actually cause the return of Spring? Did the Norsemen really believe in the World Tree connecting the world of people to that of Hel and to that of Asgard?. Belief is a tough thing.
The Wiccan tradition that I studied in followed the Oak King/Holly King vegetation cycle through the holidays that make up the Wheel of the Year. It was a foundation belief that I couldn't wrap myself around so I didn't stay with the group to work toward the next level of initiation.
The World Tree, however, is an element of my faith so I will concentrate on how I relate myth to practice. It is important enough to me that I frequently wear a talisman with the Tree on one side and a totem animal on the other. Its meaning, to me, is metaphorical in the sense that I don't really believe that there is an actual 'tree' connecting all the planes of possible existence. The Tree is a structure by which you can explain existence and spiritual relationships; it is like a diagram, a map. Think of how the Kabbalah is graphically represented - the Tree is similar but far more organic and less rigid. Squirrels run up and down the Tree, a serpent gnaws at its roots - it's a system that is always in motion, growing, dying....a spiritual Ecosystem!
The same people who had the myth of the Tree also had a creation myth involving a great Cosmic cow, the world being made of the body of a vast Giant [I don't recall the exact details]. I'm not sure that these people thought of the world as flat - they certainly sailed huge distances in relatively primitive ships. But did they believe that their myths related exact events, did they take these stories literally? I can't tell you. Do I accept all the myths from this people as guidance for life? No, I don't, and when I get around to discussing Reconstructionism versus modern Neopaganism I'll probably expand upon the place of ancient myth in modern practice until you all want me to have a sudden accident so I can't type.
There are Christians who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible - they believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old and it was created in toto by a God. Do pagans ever do something similar? Maybe, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone come out and say they believe, literally, in a set of myths such as are known from the ancient world, not even the strictest of Reconstructionists.
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:29 pm
My little bird with throat so red, Sings sorrow, sorrow, sorrow...
I like to think of the connection between the realms as something like the Entanglement theory - that every particle in the Universe is connected (and can communicate) with any other particle at a speed faster than light - even between dimensions.
Yes, I suppose as with science, there are some stories that explain what's happening but isn't correct.
Neither science or religion has a complete explanation...
He sings to the little dove that's dead, Sings sorrow, sorrow, sorrow...
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:17 pm
Very true... neither has the whole story....
Even Science requires a leap of Faith occasionally and Religion needs just a little Logic to it....
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:09 am
The Gods and Goddesses don't control nature they represent it.
There are Gods and Goddesses that are more dominant in winter and some in the summer and other seasons. Naturally the winter deity's are dominant on one side of the planet while the summer ones are on the other. That isn't to say they don't exist in the places were winter is but they are less powerful there. Obviously Yuki Onna will have very little power over people in Arizona in July but still She should be respected on the off chance She chooses to appear to someone there.
I think the world tree is something that exists on another plane then the Earth does. Its a metaphysical being.
My beliefs are really hard to explain. I even have trouble explaining them to myself sometimes.
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:29 am
One of the first things learned in my tradition is to revel in the paradox. Do I believe the Goddess is real? Yes! Do I believe the myths of the seasons? Well they are beautiful way to look at science. Now as for myths like the World Tree reaching from one realm to the next, we have a saying "the further in you go the bigger it gets" For more insight into that you can read the novel Little Big by John Crowley.
We live the most complicated simple lives, enjoy!
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:37 pm
Well this is an interesting discussion. With our current scientifical knowledge it would be hard NOT to look at the wheel of the year and its pagan lore in a metaphorical sense, but I still see how we want to be able to wrap your head around the whole round earth thing and the seasons.
The wheel of the year is always the opposite of ours in the southern hemisphere, they celebrate Samhain when we celebrate Beltaine. Would it really be fair to call Australia "the underworld"? Wouldn't that make us their underworld when it is summer there? Death and rebirth - it is taking place all over the world, at the same time! I'm talking everyday life here.
Also, speaking of lore, there are several things happening at the same time in just our hemisphere. At Beltaine, the Sun God impregnates the maiden Goddess with himself. He exists in in her womb and in her embrace at the same time. So you see, suddenly the opposite phases are not so strange anymore are they :3 The Lord and the Lady are everywhere. Ubiquitous.
If I know any myths/traditions that appear strange on a round earth? I assure you there are many, but I have not read much lore as I am more interested in experiencing the world with my own senses and not dwell too much on old beliefs that were founded when we knew little of this earth. The wheel of the year and its lore are such beautiful ways of describing the earth and the seasons! Whenever I want to be spiritual, this is the way I look at the world - but in everyday life I am always the curious science girl whee
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:21 pm
A point I would pick up on is that of 'curiosity.' As most people come to realize very quickly, on reading my commentary, I am fond of questioning 'tradition', 'authority' and 'lore,' especially when they are used in a "just do it!" way. I will pick and question, not suffering condescension or being put off without comment. Yes, I get in lots of trouble.
Use your curiosity in a spiritual sense. I would suggest that you ask interesting questions of your Gods, your Faith and your Beliefs: how does the world that Is fit into your thoughts, how do your pieces fit together, how do you reconcile a round Earth and the ideas that you hold dear.
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