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Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:21 pm
I couldn't possibly explain it as well as this. This is based on String Theory, and explains all of the dimensions up to the tenth. Enjoy. http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.phpEdit: This logic is very strange and confusing, and is not widely accepted fact among scientists. I wonder why... Personally, I think it's just a loop of insanity. There are flaws in the overall logic of it, I admit, but there are also windows of odd logic that are opened when you talk of higher dimensions. Anything could make sense. (And I don't agree with everything in that video. I don't think there should be just ten, and I don't think you can just *pop* places, and I don't think dimensions are all dumb lines. It's just food for thought... not propoganda.)
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Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:35 pm
Jerba I couldn't possibly explain it as well as this. This is based on String Theory, and explains all of the dimensions up to the tenth. Enjoy. http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php Ignore absolutely everything this video says.
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:49 pm
That video is a farce, a terrible, abhorrent mockery of mathematics and physics and even the basic tenets of rational thought. There is absolutely nothing of value in that video, and what it purports as facts and theories are nothing of the sort. It is lies and vile distortions, serving no purpose except to deceive, to mislead and misinform, to spread falsehood and unthought. I wish with full sincerity that that video and the creator of that video did not exist, and that it never existed, and that those who apparently tried and failed to educate that person also never existed, because there is no reasonable standard by which that video does anything but damage and corrosion.
That video is a sickness, a blight. Don't watch it, don't think about it, purge it from your thoughts and from your memories. It is worse than ignorance, worse than a lack of knowledge. It is anathema.
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:41 pm
Wow, should I even watch it then?
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:31 pm
death eater_111 Wow, should I even watch it then? No, don't watch it. It's not even wrong in a "these are some of the usual mistakes to look out for" sort of way. Creationist arguments, for example, would be the kind of thing at least worth skimming through, because there are people who will try to use these arguments in debate and it's always a good idea to know how the other side thinks. The tenth dimension video is just garbage and fortunately doesn't have a lot of supporters, so you won't see anyone actually trying to quote it.
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:35 am
eek Layra-chan, I think you're the biggest critic I've encountered yet.
Well, those things were what I thought at first, but I watched some videos from The Elegant Universe and it almost made sense.
Still, though, it does sound like a load of waste, doesn't it? I thought it was interesting to ponder.
What are your views on higher dimensions, by the way? I always thought they could just be connected like two dots into a line, two lines into a square, to squares into a cube, and so on.
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:07 pm
I'm critical of misrepresentations of the things I know about. That includes math, physics, artificial intelligence, and linguistics. It's one thing to argue philosophy or art, but these subjects have correct answers and pieces of drivel like that video are far from correct.
In physics, like in math, a dimension is a direction that can be used to describe a location in the universe without regard to what exists at that point. A dimension is just an orientation and a map to the number line, saying "In this direction, this point is a distance 1 from the center, this point is a distance 2 from the center, etc". In other words, a set of dimensions allows you to describe a bunch of points in terms of numbers. Points on a two-dimensional plane are described by pairs of numbers, points in a three-dimensional volume by three numbers, etc.
On a map we have latitude and longitude; these are dimensions, although they don't quite match the Earth, but they still give us a way to describe a location on the Earth without having to know what exists at that location; we could describe the location of a city such that someone could find the city, without having to describe the city itself. And note that we have lines of longitude and lines of latitude; each line is a mapping from the globe to the number line.
In general, there are three physical dimensions that we can directly observe, i.e. the three spatial dimensions. Note that the three spatial dimensions act essentially the same way. If there's a big mass below you, you get pulled downward. If the big mass were to the left of you, you'd get pulled to the left. It's all the same.
There is a fourth dimension that we experience, time. This one acts differently from the spatial dimensions, for various reasons, but it is still a dimension, and with a certain viewpoint (relativity) it acts similar enough to the first three to be integrated with them, into "spacetime".
As far as we know, these dimensions are large enough for us to notice different points along them. We can look at two objects and say "this object is to the left of that object" or "this object is above that object".
String theory posits at least six more spatial dimensions. These six dimensions are so small that we can't observe them using the physics that we know of. Below a certain length, quantum mechanics states that it is impossible to observe things, and thus since these dimensions are each shorter than this length, we can't see them or different points along them. But they exist (according to string theory) and they can be moved along, just like the three spatial dimensions that we can see. Even though we can't see them, string theory requires them. In string theory, particles are actually tiny vibrating strings, and these strings need a space to vibrate in; in order to be stable, i.e. not fall apart due to various mathematical considerations, this space needs to have nine spatial dimensions, and six of them need to be curled up into a what is called a Calabi-Yau manifold. Never mind what a Calabi-Yau manifold is; just note that it's complicated and the dimensions twist around each other and can't be separated like the dimensions of the plane can be separated into "up-down" and "left-right". Keep in mind is that these six dimensions are identical, as far as we know, in that they all act exactly the same, they just point in different directions. None of this "this one is curling, this one is probability, this one is infinity" junk. A dimension is a dimension; the only difference is which way it points and how it interacts with the other dimensions.
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:01 pm
This video... it's not even a pop-sci approximation of either mathematics or physics beyond four dimensions. If you took physics, passed it through a blender, and used the remains to construct unholy paper-mache sculptures, you still wouldn't be able to create this video. You just can't there from here. Jerba This logic is very strange and confusing, and is not widely accepted fact among scientists. I wonder why... Because while imaginative, at the fifth dimension it stops having anything at all that's mathematically or physically recognizable. One can actually make some physical sense out of alternative histories being on roughly equal ontological footing, and it does have something to do with quantum mechanics--it's the Everett relative-state formulation of QM. It doesn't look like anything described in the video, though, since in that formulation (a) there is only one universe proper, although it has components that are sometimes creatively interpreted as 'worlds', (b) the states live in an infinite-dimensional space quite different from the usual notions of spacetime, and (c) although the 'worlds' can interfere with one another, "you can't get there from here", ever, in the sense discussed in the video. Another is the canonical quantization of GTR, but the superspace it "lives in" is once again quite a lot more complicated than simply tacking on a dimension.
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:53 am
VorpalNeko This video... it's not even a pop-sci approximation of either mathematics or physics beyond four dimensions. If you took physics, passed it through a blender, and used the remains to construct unholy paper-mache sculptures, you still wouldn't be able to create this video. This made me laugh inside.
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:55 am
I think Layra-chan is right...
Big stupid dimensions are... stupid.
My view of dimensions, usually, is that each is like the previous squared. But that's on the mathematical side; in physics I believe a dimension is any quality of matter that is independent of the others. When you combine these two ideas... well, I don't know what you get. But it kind of confuses me. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:23 pm
In physics, a dimension is basically just like a dimension in geometry. A line is one dimensional in both math and physics, a plane is two dimensional in both math and physics, a volume is three dimensional in both math and physics, and so on. Qualities of matter are usually considered not so much dimensions in physics but "degrees of freedom". "Dimension" in physics is reserved for space and time, i.e. location information independent of matter.
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:23 pm
The word does carry a certain amount of 'default assumptions', but saying it's reserved for just those is a bit too strong. One usually talks about a system with n degrees of freedom, but its phase space as being n-dimensional, for example.
And then in mathematics, there is a proliferation of many different notions of "dimension", hardly any of which are equivalent in general and some not even giving integers as results.
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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:09 pm
That's true about the phase space, although I've always thought of the phase space as more of a mathematical construct rather than an object of physics, just as the Hilbert space of quantum mechanics has an infinite number of dimensions, but those aren't generally considered to be physical dimensions.
And while mathematics in general has any number of definitions of dimension, geometry is rather picky about them; the only case where geometry has a multiplicity of non-equivalent definitions of dimension is with fractals, and since physics has not exhibited a fractal system yet, there is no real need to differentiate between the different notions.
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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:59 pm
Layra-chan That's true about the phase space, although I've always thought of the phase space as more of a mathematical construct rather than an object of physics, just as the Hilbert space of quantum mechanics has an infinite number of dimensions, but those aren't generally considered to be physical dimensions. Well, if the earlier "in physics" meant "physical" as you say here, then I've no cause for even a minor nitpicky disagreement, so consider it withdrawn. And yes, I can see that the default is to assume that particular meaning unless forced otherwise. Although I'm curious as to your distinction here. How far do you extend it? If it can be manipulated in some way that gives observably different results, it is "real enough"? Or are things like forces, energy, and momenta mathematical constructs as well rather than "objects of physics" proper? (And here I confess to having rather strong anti-realist tendencies. "Physics [slams desk]--is that.") Layra-chan And while mathematics in general has any number of definitions of dimension, geometry is rather picky about them; the only case where geometry has a multiplicity of non-equivalent definitions of dimension is with fractals, ... . Not really true, e.g., in projective geometry, which also has some physical utility in reasoning about physical behavior (quantum logic).
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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:12 pm
Layra-chan In physics, a dimension is basically just like a dimension in geometry. A line is one dimensional in both math and physics, a plane is two dimensional in both math and physics, a volume is three dimensional in both math and physics, and so on. Qualities of matter are usually considered not so much dimensions in physics but "degrees of freedom". "Dimension" in physics is reserved for space and time, i.e. location information independent of matter. Ohhh.... I always considered dimensions to be a quality of something. You know, like length, width, height, duration, and so on. sweatdrop I guess the definition is kind of flexible.
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