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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:16 pm
Here is an example of how far pro-abortion folks will go to defend abortion:
Last year, in my history class, we had a debate on guns, equal rights, school prayer, and abortion. During the abortion debate, I get up, go to the board and start writing fetal facts. My friend, who wears hearing aids, has an interperter who is a nice lady, but is hardcore pro-abortion. She would take a bullet to defend it. Take a look at how she responded after I was done writing the fetal facts:
INTERPRETER: Your argument is that the fetus is a living thing. Well, cancer is a living thing, too and you have to ki-- ME: Cancer doesn't have a heartbeat or arms or legs and you can't see it in an ultrasound.
I don't normally interupt people, but the cancer comment just ticked me off. Anyway, one girl raised her hand GIRL: I believe life begins at conception, so abortion is the taking of a human life.
The girl said it nicely but to the point. She wasn't shouting or being angry. She was just making her case. What does the interpreter do?
INTERPRETER: Have you ever been pregnant? GIRL: No. INTERPRETER: (raises her voice, even starts yelling) Then you don't understand what pregnancy does to the woman's body and what if the woman is raped? Why should she have to bear the rapist's child? GIRL: You don't have to yell. INTERPRETER: I'M NOT YELLING!
Well, the interpreter's attempt to intimidate the girl backfired because in a twist of fate, all the pro-life kids went after the interpreter and all the pro-choice kids sank in their seats. This one boy, whose the outspoken one of the class, was grilling her the most. Here is what he said:
BOY: What about people who dodged the draft? Sure, they had their reasons, but they still made the choice to break the law. No matter what your reason, in the end a choice is a choice and choices have consequences.
In the end, the pro-lifers won by a landslide!
Later, when the debate was over and it was all said and done, the interpreter said this to me:
INTERPRETER: What if someone had a knife to your throat? ME: I would defend myself. But that's self-defense. That's completely different from-- INTERPRETER: (points at her stomach) This is self-defense, honey! What if the baby puts a woman in a dire financial situation? And what about all the children in the world already suffering? Is that fair to them? To make them suffer?
So by her "logic", it would be so much better if poor children in improvished countries were aborted so that they wouldn't have to suffer, even though they would suffer a grisly, painful death, aborting them is much more humane. I could go on, but you get the point. My friend with the hearing aids said the interpreter was STILL talking about it even when I left for my next class.
So, as you can see, pro-"choicers" will literally say ANYTHING, even if it's completely stupid and irrational, to defend their position. They will continue the debate even if you and everyone else grows tired of it. They will go on for all eternity to get the last word and silence the opponent into submission.
And that is a classic example of pro-choice desperation.
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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:43 am
That's an awesome story - but it's important to realize that there are a lot of pro-lifers as well who are set in their ways and can be pretty rude and irrational. Many people, especially most older people (no offense to anyone) are completely convinced of their opinions, because their thoughts had so many years to set in without being challenged. They may also have been scarred by past experiences, which can hinder their ability to make strong arguments because they express what they feel more than what they think. By how emotional she sounds, it seems that she may have had a pregnancy experience, or someone close to her did. The lady was making a fool of herself and also making the other students look bad, which was unfair to them. I hope you guys can have a better debate later, where the pro-choice students can have their say without her yelling over them.
Althought, it was, indeed, a win. ^ ^
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Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:14 pm
Wow. Not gonna lie, crazy lady. I do agree with Lorysa though, there are pro-lifers out there who would do the same thing. Lets take rape out of the figure. If a teenage couple were having sex and the girl gets pregnant, could you really give them reason to have an abortion? It's not like protection hasn't been invented. Condoms and birth control make it next to impossible to get girls pregnant. And even if you were raped, you could give the child up for adoption. You do not HAVE to kill the fetus. But if you wanted to use that for an argument, you will probably be faced with 1 of 2 things. 1. What if the mothers life is put into danger, and 2. What about the hundreds upon hundreds of other children already in the adoption agency's hands? Its 1:13 in the morning, I'm having a bit of trouble coming up with an argument for #2.
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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:14 am
emoXvampireXgirl Wow. Not gonna lie, crazy lady. I do agree with Lorysa though, there are pro-lifers out there who would do the same thing. Lets take rape out of the figure. If a teenage couple were having sex and the girl gets pregnant, could you really give them reason to have an abortion? It's not like protection hasn't been invented. Condoms and birth control make it next to impossible to get girls pregnant. And even if you were raped, you could give the child up for adoption. You do not HAVE to kill the fetus. But if you wanted to use that for an argument, you will probably be faced with 1 of 2 things. 1. What if the mothers life is put into danger, and 2. What about the hundreds upon hundreds of other children already in the adoption agency's hands? Its 1:13 in the morning, I'm having a bit of trouble coming up with an argument for #2. Well...it's not really next to impossible. It's just a lot more unlikely. For number 2, don't let them get you into the mindset of "This isn't a real person yet." If a fetus was not a human being, there would be no problem with abortion, but since a fetus is a human being there is. With that in mind, it is not okay to go into orphanages and kill all the orphans, even if it's entirely painless, because there are so many and "Oh orphans will have a terrible life and never get adopted!" It's just not acceptable. If it is not okay to kill children already in the system to keep them from being in the system, it is not a valid argument to say abortion is okay because of all the other kids in the system.
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:22 pm
I'd say "Fine, have rape. The other 1.3 million abortions a year are mine."
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:00 am
divineseraph I'd say "Fine, have rape. The other 1.3 million abortions a year are mine." ...You want to perform 1.3 million abortions? That's sick and twisted, Divine.
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:10 am
Divine, I imagine you sitting in a corner twirling your mustache going, "Finally, most of the world's abortions are mine, MWUAHAHAHAHA!"
But seriously, the rape issue is difficult. It's a sliver of all abortions performed, so why is it brought up? Simple. Because it's an emotional appeal that works on lifers, and if someone will say "It's okay to have an abortion when you're raped," then it shifts the entire debate. How can you then argue that abortion is bad because you're killing a person? Why is it okay to kill a person when you're raped but not okay when it's consensual? Obviously, lifers are just punishing women for having sex!
In truth it comes back to playing on compassion. The woman never had a choice in her situation, as opposed to women who consent to sex. In both cases the man has a choice, but in one case a woman has absolutely no choice over whether she becomes pregnant or not. It's not really fair to say to her, "Yes, you need to have this baby even though it's not your fault you're pregnant." We know it's not fair. We can feel it, we can see it, we can sympathize. And it's easy to forget when faced with the enormity of unfairness that rape entails that the fetus is still a person and had as little choice as the woman did in the situation.
Basically, we're labeled as evil women-hating jerks because we care about the rape victims so much that we lose sight of why abortion is so wrong. And then instead of focusing on alternatives to abortion that will help rape victims as much as abortion is supposed to, we get uncomfortable and ignore that scenario because it poses a problem of inconsistency that we don't want to face, or causes us to feel evil for feeling that it's wrong even then.
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:13 am
lymelady Divine, I imagine you sitting in a corner twirling your mustache going, "Finally, most of the world's abortions are mine, MWUAHAHAHAHA!" I imagine him as a Bond villain with an eyepatch. "Leave 1.3 million abortions to me!"
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:40 pm
You know what I meant. Exchange "mine" for "my realm", and we have something closer. Namely, not doing them.
Point being, they can have rape. That's still less than 10% of all abortions done in America. If rape is their big concern, fine, have it. Then get rid of the others because their argument apparently ends at "what about rape victims".
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:26 pm
divineseraph You know what I meant. Exchange "mine" for "my realm", and we have something closer. Namely, not doing them. Point being, they can have rape. That's still less than 10% of all abortions done in America. If rape is their big concern, fine, have it. Then get rid of the others because their argument apparently ends at "what about rape victims". My patience is thin today, so I apologize if what I say is rude. 1. "They can have rape" should probably be phrased a little better. I get what you're trying to say, but it still makes me do a doubletake. 2. Legally, abortions in the case of rape will always be around, I bet. You can't make the argument that a couple made their choice when they chose to have sex. Taking that away opens the door for some scary things that I don't want to get into. But, that doesn't warrant a cavalier "Oh give the dog its bone," attitude. When you say allow it in the case of rape, the debate shifts to "You're punishing women for having sex!" which of course not only continues the debate but sidetracks it completely since it now becomes about you being a misogynist who wants women to have government-imposed chastity belts. The last possible thing you want is for that sidetrack because it is such an effective way of getting people to stop listening to the "it's not right to kill a human being" message that lies at the heart of the pro-life movement. Once it stops becoming about mom's convenience weighed against child's life and becomes about you wanting to punish women for having sex, it's extremely hard to get back on track.
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:34 pm
Wow that is one crazy story! Yeah i have noticed that too.. I once had an argument with my grandmother and she kept saying the same exact thing over and over ''its the womens boby''....um and its the babys life!!!
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:52 pm
I agree that pro-lifers are just as capable of being irrational and nuts as pro-choicers. I've seen pro-lifers go crazy and I'm like, "Dude, you're not helping!" But it's just mind-boggling how far people will go to defend their position, even saying stuff that's just stupid and intellectually incoherent. I hate it when people try to continue the debate even when everyone else has grown tired of it. I love intelligent discussion, but at some time even I get tired of the subject. My debate juice only lasts for so long. My mom told a friend of hers about the debate and he says there's power in it. People respond to the logical, calm person, not the kicking and screaming person. They saw I was just telling it like it is and she was flipping her lid and as a result, she lost the argument. It was a fair debate until she opened her mouth. But overall it was an awesome debate!
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:31 pm
Rosary16 I agree that pro-lifers are just as capable of being irrational and nuts as pro-choicers. I've seen pro-lifers go crazy and I'm like, "Dude, you're not helping!" But it's just mind-boggling how far people will go to defend their position, even saying stuff that's just stupid and intellectually incoherent. I hate it when people try to continue the debate even when everyone else has grown tired of it. I love intelligent discussion, but at some time even I get tired of the subject. My debate juice only lasts for so long. My mom told a friend of hers about the debate and he says there's power in it. People respond to the logical, calm person, not the kicking and screaming person. They saw I was just telling it like it is and she was flipping her lid and as a result, she lost the argument. It was a fair debate until she opened her mouth. But overall it was an awesome debate! I agree that both sides can be nuts. I hate debates now. They tend to ignore the facts and keep going back to the same thing they always say and when you want to quit and they run out of things to say, it turns into bashing and end up having nothing to do with the debate. And no, they don't always respond to logic (at least here they don't half the time, I tried).
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:51 am
Bitter_Medicine Rosary16 I agree that pro-lifers are just as capable of being irrational and nuts as pro-choicers. I've seen pro-lifers go crazy and I'm like, "Dude, you're not helping!" But it's just mind-boggling how far people will go to defend their position, even saying stuff that's just stupid and intellectually incoherent. I hate it when people try to continue the debate even when everyone else has grown tired of it. I love intelligent discussion, but at some time even I get tired of the subject. My debate juice only lasts for so long. My mom told a friend of hers about the debate and he says there's power in it. People respond to the logical, calm person, not the kicking and screaming person. They saw I was just telling it like it is and she was flipping her lid and as a result, she lost the argument. It was a fair debate until she opened her mouth. But overall it was an awesome debate! I agree that both sides can be nuts. I hate debates now. They tend to ignore the facts and keep going back to the same thing they always say and when you want to quit and they run out of things to say, it turns into bashing and end up having nothing to do with the debate. And no, they don't always respond to logic (at least here they don't half the time, I tried). *nods* I used to get fairly frustrated about that too. For the most part I'm a pretty laid back person, I don't take things personally but abortion is just one of those topics that gets really heated and extremely personal because on the one end you have women who have faced unwanted pregnancies and probably feel a bit violated when others try to tell them what to do (and those who stand up for and/or strongly empathize with them). I'm with those who say that the embryo/fetus is alive and human (biologically it would be stupid to deny that) and it's also a human life in an early stage of development. That's how I see it at least and those who are against abortion as a legal option typically see that embryo/fetus as a living human being who deserves life and they're fighting to uphold our most basic human right, that right to life (even more then that we're dealing with the helpless, innocent child category which gets emotions flying even more). I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't like how things can get out of hand but I can understand why. I have no idea what to do about it or if there's anything you really can do. ugh, it's really late where I am so I'm kind of hoping that I'm actually making some sense here. I guess I'll find out later sweatdrop
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