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First, I'd like to establish the fact that being a Calvinist doesn't mean one follows John Calvin; it means one holds to the general beliefs on salvation that John Calvin professed, which can easily be summed up in T.U.L.I.P., which I will get to in a minute. Secondly, once saved, always saved is a loose term. I prefer the term 'perserverance of the saints'. Claiming to be saved and doing things in the name of Christ doesn't necessarily mean one is saved, as I will point out later. Also, there's a lot of myths out there about historical figures, such as the thing about that woman (I can't recall her name) who people say made up the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture, when in fact she didn't, and people were quoting her out of context.


Read this in context and it becomes abundantly clear that your understanding of the word 'remain' isn't how it's being used when you read it within the chapters' context. The NIV translates it to 'remain', while the NASB and KJV translate it to 'abide'. Regardless of how it's translated, if you read the language used, it's not talking about anyone falling away from the faith, but about people who never believe.


Once again, context. This isn't talking about Christians falling from the faith.

In context:




I'm sorry, what does this have to do with falling away from the faith, exactly? This is talking about unrepentance of believers, not people falling away from the faith.


"The passage that warns the Hebrews against falling away is warning them against one thing: abandoning trust in Christ alone by going back to now worthless and obsolete things, such as trusting in the temple sacrifice and the Law in order to be justified. The warnings are given to those in the community that they would not be tempted to turn from trusting Jesus alone (who is God over all) for some lesser or meaningless ritual act that supposedly now can curry God's favor. Trusting in anything except Christ alone, who is the light that scatters all shadows, is said to be tantamount to "trampling under foot the Son of God" believing that His once of all sacrifice is insufficient in itself to save. If something in place of, or in addition to, Jesus is trusted in it is no different than a denial of Him. So in context, the persons who go back by trading in Christ for the now-empty ritual of the temple (that itself was meant to point to the fulfillment in Christ), are then re-crucifying the Son to their shame. Hebrews 6:4-8 is often read in isolation apart from this context.

Tragically, the very next text (which is crucial) is also often left off by those who claim regenerate Christians can fall away ... a text which qualifies the preceding text. The writer of Hebrews in verse 9 says, "Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation." If the author of Hebrews is confident of better things of the persons he is speaking with, things that belong to salvation, then obviously falling away does not belong to it. This is a clear statement that the author was not describing saving faith of those who are in danger of falling away in the preceding passage, because the kind of response that falls away, he says, are not among the "things that belong to salvation." So whatever the things the author just described about falling away in Heb 6:4-8 are not the characteristics of true regenerate persons. People can be enlightened and taste and partake .... They may be externally a part of the church and receive external blessings, yet if they abandon trust in Christ for ritual or something else, there is no hope for their salvation. They were never regenerate to begin with for falling away does not accompany or belong to true salvation, according to the text."


And, like the female pastors scenario, it's mentioned elsewhere in Scripture as well, which I will point out after I'm finished responding to your post.


...I'm getting the feeling you're taking a bunch of info from a website and copy/pasting it here as if you wrote it yourself, no offense. What, pray tell, does that have to do with this subject? I'd really like to know, because I'm not seeing how that contradicts Perserverance of the Saints at all.



Very well, then. I don't want to come off with a harsh tone, by the way, so if it seems like I am, I'm actually in a pretty good mood right now, so please don't take anything I say the wrong way.

In the first part of my response, I mentioned the Calvinistic belief and how it can be represented by the acronym T.U.L.I.P. The acronym stands for the following:

T: Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
U: Unconditional Election
L: Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
I: Irresistible Grace
P: Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

I'll give scriptural support for all parts of the acronym, and I suggest you read all parts instead of skipping to the end because a lot of the points are intertwined.

Total Depravity: The doctrine of Total Depravity holds that man, dead in sin, is totally helpless and incapable of doing good [1][2] or seeking God [3] on his own. He cannot understand spiritual things either.[4] So one must ask the question: "If man is helpless and incapable, how can anyone choose or desire God?" The answer is, you can't; therefore God must predestine. Calvinism holds that because man cannot choose God of his own will (because his fallen state won't allow it), God therefore saves us of His Divine will, not our own. [5][6][7][8] And if you have a problem with that, may I suggest you consider Romans 9:9-23.

Unconditional Election: Simply put, God doesn't choose to save us for our actions, but according to His will without consideration of someone's merit.[9][10] God does not just see into the future and know who chooses Him (Nobody chooses God); He elects people for salvation.[11] Some are elected while others are not.[10] Do not think of this as cruel, because God is under no obligation to save us in the first place. We're the ones in sin, not Him.

Limited Atonement:
"Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for 'many'; John 10:11,15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion where he would bear the sins of many (not all)." [Courtesy of CARM]

[I'll admit that at this point, I'm copy/pasting from CARM, but just for these two points, because I'm up about 5 hours past my bedtime and I'm half-asleep at this point (keeping this post organized and retrieving links and everything takes a lot of time). Please forgive me.]

Irresistible Grace: "When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Rom. 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Phil. 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to eternal life; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man's will, but by God's."

Perseverance of the Saints ("Once Saved, Always Saved"): A True Christian cannot lose their salvation. (Do not misunderstand this, a supposed 'Christian' who turns to Satanism and follows it until their last breath was never saved in the first place, for example. Anyone reading this; please don't misrepresent me or the doctrine of PotS/OSAS.) The Bible clearly says that those who believe in Him have eternal life. (John 6:47, 1 John 5:13, John 10:27-28) Eternal life cannot be lost, otherwise it wouldn't be eternal. God does not allow us to be tested beyond what we can handle, so anyone who supposedly loses their faith could never have actually had it in the first place if such an event should occur.[12] Even those who do works in the name of Christ aren't necessarily saved:


The true believers in Christ were predestined to be so, as Christ Himself says:
"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."


To be honest, about a month ago, I never would have dreamed that I'd ever be defending Calvinism. lol I look forward to your response.

Your brother in Christ,
Spike

I'd contend that "no one" is universal, and I see no reason why it wouldn't also pertain to the saved Christian in question.

Certainly a Christian who is truly saved would never want to run away. And keeping in mind the other points of Calvinism and the evidence from Scripture, it's clear to me that God chooses us, we don't choose Him. And since God wouldn't un-choose us, anyone who supposedly 'runs away' was never elected by God in the first place. A True Christian would not run away; one who is regenerated and filled with the Holy Spirit cannot undo that, and God does not try to save us and fail because we don't want to. God does not falter.

Also, as I said before in Perserverance of the Saints, the Bible says that those who believe in Him have eternal life already. Eternal life cannot be lost otherwise it wouldn't be eternal. Ultimately, I think you pointed out yourself that your analogy doesn't make any sense, as the rock cannot choose to leave your hand. On second thought, that analogy would actually make sense in support of the opposite of what you may be trying to suggest, now that I think about it.

I never said that people in sin would never come to God. What I said is God elected those people for salvation, even if they didn't realize it. Also, please, if you're going to state something contrary to my points when I've given plenty of Biblical references, instead of stating your opinion, please back it up with Bible references. Otherwise, you're not convincing me.

The whole purpose of this thread is to discuss the topic, not go into personal messages. I'm not arguing, I'm just not convinced. Going into private messages on the matter would be pointless, and it seems to me like you're pretty insecure about your position if you'd want to keep it out of the eyes of the rest of the guild. I'm not trying to be accusative, but that's what I'm getting from it.

I won't go into private messaging for an issue like this because other people need to see the other sides and whether they have any Biblical support. So far I see none for the other views other than emotional feelings and opinions.

It is not that I'm insecure; it's that I do feel some people here don't want to hear what I have to say. I suggested PM's so that it wasn't just people shouting back and forth. We should be discussing, but not arguing. Honestly, a lot of times I'm just too lazy to post quotes. But here you go:

What you describe sounds like predestination, which many but not all Christian denominations believe. However, I would urge you to consider Saul, David, and Solomon in the two books of Samuel. They all started as righteous kings, then murdered, committed idolatry, or attempted murder, among other things. So was this their own choices that took them away from God, or did He decide they weren't worthy of being saved despite (especially for David and Solomon) their great faith and righteousness?

Read the first book of Samuel. Saul and David were both anointed kings of Israel. The Lord gave Israel a king only because they asked for it, but He chose good men who would follow Him.

1 Sam 10: 9-10
And it was so, that when he [Saul] had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

Is there any reason to not believe God chose Saul as a king? And also that Saul had God's spirit with him? But we also know that later in 1 Samuel, Saul "fell away". In 1 Sam 16, David is anointed king and the spirit of God leaves Saul. But why did it leave? Because God decided He was done with Saul? That doesn't feel right to me. That makes God fickle, like man. Rather, Saul had become proud. In chapters 13 and 15, Saul disobeyed God's set laws (about who was to offer sacrifice) and commandments (about the enemies' herds being destroyed).

1 Sam 15: 11
It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night.

Saul had made a choice not to obey God's commandments. In chapters 10 and 11, he's chosen of God, has the Lord's spirit, has a new heart. So wouldn't that be like us, the Christians who make a covenant with God to follow Him and His son? And then Saul made choices that took him away from God.

The same things happen to David and Solomon in both books of Samuel. They are favored of God and then murder and commit idolatry. So did God not choose them? Or did they make their own choices that took them away from God?

If God is truly just and merciful, which He is, He would choose us all. So somewhere we have to make the choice. And we can choose to do wrong, then repent and do right. We can also choose to do right and then apostatize. After all, would Jesus really choose Iscariot as a disciple if he was a bad guy and a traitor all along?

You may not agree with me, but I did want to submit this for your consideration. smile

I see no mention of God electing Saul for salvation, just that he chose him to be King of Israel.

I think you're misunderstanding me somewhat; I didn't say people don't sin of their choice, I'm saying that we are elected by God and through God's grace we are saved.


God did not choose them. It's not that hard to grasp, honestly, when you look at scripture.


This is your opinion. The Scriptures state: "For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." - Romans 9:15-16 (NASB) Christians are blessed enough to be saved as it is, as everyone is a sinner and deserves God's justice. God didn't have to save me or any other person if He didn't want to. It's because He did that I'm eternally thankful.


Here you seem to be insinuating that works lead to salvation and lack of works result in loss of salvation, which is a heresy, mind you.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)


Yes, because Jesus is God, and knew that the prophecy of being betrayed had to come to pass, and so Judas was elected to be that traitor to fulfill prophecy.

That seems to be talking about those who deny the truth even when they have knowledge of it, not saved Christians.