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uryu ishida

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:52 pm


Well, I'm taking the "Devil's Advocate" position and opening a discussion about the book itself. I will be criticizing it where fit, and praising it where fit.
I've decided to re-read it again before actually finishing this thread, since it's been nearly a year since I've read it.

MY critical views will be based on the knowledge I've gained over more than year in intellectual discussions about what is possible in reality, strategems, survival plans, equipment, and other such things, all based on realism.


PREMATURE THREAD RULES:
1.While I'm reading, go ahead and point out things I should pay attention to (other than "leave us to our beliefs that it's great!") as particularly good in reality, or particularly bad.

2:I'm not trying to flame his book, but I am breaking it down through the filter of reality, which some of you may see as flaming. I'm not intentionally trying to flame him, don't flame me.

3:If I state something you see as false, call me out. Then we'll chat about it till one of us concedes. If you want to take it to PMs or IMs, say so.

4:Follow ToS and Guild rules.

Oh yeah, and 5:
This may take a bit. Don't get TOO impatient, I haven't read it in a year and I'm starting at 11PM.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:36 am


Okay, This is the section I've completed so far. Again, I reiterate, this is a critique based on the idea of what is actually possible in reality, from a scientific and physiological viewpoint. I typed it up on my mobile computer while reading so I wouldn't have to keep switching between windows. I typed it as I read along, so the section or topic headers are there followed by a critique of what follows.


Solanum:

Yes, it's false. it's also scientifically impossible. also, Solanum is a plant genus last I checked.

The Reality:

The frontal lobe or rest of the brain cannot power the entire body regardless of viruses, or even parasites. Mutation does not happen on an instant basis and instead takes long periods of time. This means the body cannot be dead. some of you may say this means they aren't a zobie, but it's the only way. essentially, the only truley possible way is pretty much super-rabies.

The muscles connot move without oxygen. They cannot get oxygen without moving blood. They cannot get blood without a working heart. They also require other nutrients and energy t ovie. This means real food. To cut it short, they are living and can be killed like any human. Nowhere near as fearful.

Abilities:

A: Sight

This seems physiologically correct. KUDOS!

B: Sound

Also seems correct.

C: Smell

some good, plenty of bad. They may rely on smell more according to Brooks, but he contradicts himself in that they can specifically smell a living human from a dead one from pheromones through masking. Pheromones do not dissiminate through the air well, and not through masking such as dead blood, garbage, or strong chemicals. Not with our olfactory sensors.

D: Taste

I have no clue why he included this. It's all sound, though.

E: Touch

Somewhat sound, but they will indeed feel, if only ignore. IN all seriousness, if they can't feel any sensations AT ALL they are at a severe disadvantage. They wouldn't know when they touch something, obviously, which has many problems in and of itself.

F: Sixth Sense

Plainly, bull.

G: Healing

Mostly bull. as stated, they would have to be living. Cells automagically fix themselves, so they would heal. This says nothing of inevitable infections of any open wounds, but they would heal as a human would with the same care of the wound.

H: Decomposition

I might as well ignore this, because they don't decompose if they are living, and it's pretty much all bull. the virus wouldn't actually be able to bar the decomposers, as it would have to actively combat them, which requires moving blood to transport the virus.

I: digestion

Ignoring for obvious reasons.

J: Respiration

Living. Needs oxygen. Duh.

I'm going to cut the critique in this section short because it's repetitive. It's all negated by a living zombie.

Up next:
Whenever I get around to continue reading.
Debate this section. Read it over in the book if you have to.

uryu ishida


uryu ishida

PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:34 pm


2. Behavioral Patterns
A: Intelligence
THis is arguable. Really, it's nigh impossible for the brain to be destroyed by a virus, and if it did the target would simply die. But it is possible that the largest percent of it to become dormant, or be unused. It's entirely possible they are as stupid as he says. BUT, it is also possible that they remain as smart as we are, humans simply with an added urge to spread the virus.

B: Emotions
This ties in closely with A. If they remain fully seintient, they should still have emotions and utilize them. If the brain becmoes largely dormant, they wouldn;t other than the most base of emotions, which are largely just names for the sensations caused by the body expressing its needs to the brain.

C: Memories
This is essentially the same as B, and relies 100% on A. To have logic or learn is to employ at lest some kind of memory.

D: Physical Needs
Defeated by a living zombie, as will a lot of the book. Actually, with a mostly dormant brain, this would completel destroy much of any thread posed by zombies, because they would die within three days if they do not seek out water. If they seek out water but not shelter or protection, not much longer in any form of climate other than "moderate".

E: Communication
This ties in with A. If they remain sentient they will have forms of communication. Even with largely dormant brains, some form of communication is entirely possible.

F: Social Dynamics
This is an odd one and long. If there is sentience, there will naturally be some form of social hierarchy, and a social dynamic will form. If they are not seintient, it's possible that one cou,d still form, if more rudimentary.

G: Hunting
Okay, this ties in as just about everyhting else does. One thing though, is that there are several inconsistencies, such as how do they search or investigate an area without the thought to do it, or use doors and such things without both touch and thought? If they were so stupid, the infection could be prevented from spreading simply by closing doors and making sure your window shades are closed while some force goes about drawing them to their location and killing them. The AVERAGE home has enough food to last a week. SOme lower-income homes, ironically, have more becuase they understand living paycheck to paycheck is inconsistent.

H: Motivation
Motivation is an action of subconsious or consious thought. It's a GOAL. It's only trulely possible if they still have the capacity to think, even if only on a subconsious level. Wihtout logic or thought, or memories for that matter, how would they understand the concept of living things and non-living things?

I: Killing the Dead
He overcomplicates it with his dead zombies. Living zombies, what are actually possible, are much easier to kill. While a headshot is always deal for it's generally instant stopping of the threat, they could be stopped by a major wound, killed by bloof loss, dehydration, heat stroke, starvation, exposure, et cetera. As well, damaging vital organs, just like a human, would kill them. THey RE humans, just infected.

J: Disposal
The same rules, aside from specific care of the head, really apply to all dead bodies or other bio-waste. Cremation/burning is simply he most efficient method, becuase it lowers the mass and volume of bio-waste left, and mostly sanitizes it. BUT, true cremation requires a furnace, and the bits need to be "mixed" occasioannly to ensure a full burn. Just getting a pile of bodies, pouring gas on them, and lighting them will still leave a rether large pile that isn't completely burned away. Bones will also remain in such a case, thus why crematories use furnaces.

K: Domestication?
No clue why he brought this up at all. There is no reason to domesticate one, nor would it be possible were they sentient.


The Voodoo Zombie
I have to say, I'm proud of Brooks with this description of Voodoo zombies. He really did his research here, and analyzed it well. So far, it's the best part of the book.
#6: Hypersense is utterly retarded. Humans do not have a hypersense, or sensory organ for one, thus a zombie could not have it. As well, our hearing is not developed enough to hear a footstep, eben on hard concrete, at 500 yards. In fact, depending on geography, you might not be able to hear a gunshot at 500 yards! And our olfacotry senses are not developed enough to catch the smell of another human at any signifigant distance more than across the room, even with favorable wind conditions. We aren't very smelly creatures, especially when we wash ourselves.
And you aren't going to run into a voodoo zombie in the southern US. I live here. I've never seen one.



The Hollywood Zombie
I have to admit, this section is particularly amusing. He goes quite in-depth of it, though some of the criticisms he argues against for the movies do also apply to his book. I do understand it's a work of fiction, a GUIDE, so I'll give it a pass. The book operates under the assumption that it's right.


Outbreaks
There is not much to argue here, because class systems are defined by their creators. If you and your friends decide on your own class system and agree on it, it's YOUR class system and not much can be argued.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:25 am


uryu ishida
E: Touch

Somewhat sound, but they will indeed feel, if only ignore. IN all seriousness, if they can't feel any sensations AT ALL they are at a severe disadvantage. They wouldn't know when they touch something, obviously, which has many problems in and of itself.
I know it's possible to block out pain without blocking out touch. It's a rare birth defect that actually has happened in humans, called congenital analgesia. The inability to recognize an injury leads many to die in childhood. Also, many autistic people have it. I read a story once about an autistic kid who grabbed an oven rack that had been pre-heated to 400° and refused to let go.

Quote:
F: Sixth Sense

Plainly, bull.
I'm willing to discuss this part, actually. There IS that "someone's watching me" feeling you get... it's possible that that's not just natural paranoia or a subconscious attention to minute air currents or such, but it's actually an extremely mild psychic attachment left over from the days when proto-men were herd animals. Maybe going back to primal instincts would boost this enough to unconsciously know when another human is within 100 yards or so? Or maybe it'd only let zombies find other zombies, who knows.

Quote:
H: Decomposition

I might as well ignore this, because they don't decompose if they are living, and it's pretty much all bull. the virus wouldn't actually be able to bar the decomposers, as it would have to actively combat them, which requires moving blood to transport the virus.
I had a theory on this, actually. Adrenaline causes capillaries to close up. So a constant, high dose of adrenaline would make you immune to pain AND it would cause your skin to die and slough off. Of course, it might also make your eyes fall out, so I can't say it'd be useful.

Quote:
A: Intelligence
THis is arguable. Really, it's nigh impossible for the brain to be destroyed by a virus, and if it did the target would simply die. But it is possible that the largest percent of it to become dormant, or be unused. It's entirely possible they are as stupid as he says. BUT, it is also possible that they remain as smart as we are, humans simply with an added urge to spread the virus.
What's the practical difference between that and a vampire? You might argue that vampires drink the blood and can only be killed by a stake through the heart (and the like), but I could conversely argue that zombies are undead and eat only human brains. IMO, the main difference between a zombie and a vampire is that vampires are cool, composed, and intelligent. Suave, even. Zombies are slavering, semi-retarded man-beasts who won't stop attacking until they've torn you in half and eaten your offal.

Fresnel

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Iratus Everto

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:11 am


I read the guide every 6 months to freshen up. and who knows maybe in the future some stupid scientist will create a virus. i freshen up cause you never know, im just prepared. but the guide does have some simple easy facts like take out the brain and you kill the zombie and so on.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:55 am


uryu ishida
2. Behavioral Patterns
A: Intelligence
THis is arguable. Really, it's nigh impossible for the brain to be destroyed by a virus, and if it did the target would simply die. But it is possible that the largest percent of it to become dormant, or be unused. It's entirely possible they are as stupid as he says. BUT, it is also possible that they remain as smart as we are, humans simply with an added urge to spread the virus.
I really don't think that would qualify as zombification, though. In "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers," (or at least the remake. I couldn't sit through the original) the "zombies" were just as smart, if not more intelligent (due to their hive mind) as/than the humans. However, "zombie" really didn't seem to resonate from the movie. They are just as strong as us, could feel pain just as well, and were just as smart. The only difference were that they, like some p***k on the subway, wanted to infect you with some kind of pathogen. (Oh, also, they wanted to kill those that were immune.)

I believe the most likely scenario where we still keep somewhat true to zombies, is that their minds would be clouded with rage too much for them to formulate any plan past "EAT THOSE ********!"

Shrantic

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