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 Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:33 am
we all know that socialism & communism isnt the greatest theory in the world to put into practice,
but one thing that never fails to make me ponder is why i see so many americans here on gaia,
oppose useful reforms like universal health care because its socialist.
coming from the uk, i have grown up with the NHS - we put a bit of our taxes towards national insurance and when we get ill,
we dont have to worry finding funds for treatments or doctor visits.
we dont have to worry about not being insured.
its doesnt always work, it gets annoying & sometimes frustrating,
& sometimes funds are short because it comes from taxes,
but i am glad we have this system in place & not being rejected help because we dont have insurance.
so, i dont understand when americans go:
i dont like it because its socialist.
and?
does it never occur to people that it might just help out?
that it might help those who cant afford insurance?
if you can give me a really good reason as to why you think its a bad idea,
rather than using the fact its from a different political theory,
i might be able to appreciate what the issue is with universal health care.
discuss this with me.
do you like it & why/why not?
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:16 pm
Hey, I just joined and being the way I am immediately clicked the Political discussions area.
I've lived in the United States for my entire life. I personally am against Health Care because if the bill is passed, my hard earned money will end up going to someone that doesn't deserve it. I know you may think I'm inhuman for believing that someone doesn't deserve health care, but if they're not going to work for it, why should they get it? I understand that people have trouble getting their feet on the ground when they start their own businesses, or if they get a divorce, or something of the sort. But everyone, no matter what, has the ability to go out and get a job. Over here places like McDonald's and Burger King give health insurance to their employees. Sure it's not full coverage, but it's basic, which is exactly what the government plans to give us if we have a government run health care plan.
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mr cloudies best friend Captain
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:44 pm
The primary problem right now is a lack of funds. The health care reform their planing now (which isn't universal) will cost over a trillion dollars.
Another problem is that we are not focusing on the issue. The cause of the health care crisis. Which i don't like to call a health care issue. Because Americas health care is among the best in the world. The problem is with insurance. And why is insurance a problem? Well # 1 the insurance companies (along with banks, large corporations, etc) Got to their massive conglomerate state by taking massive low interest government loans to buy out other smaller companies.
Even in the 80s and early 90s there was no problem with healthcare.
The problem is us having the federal reserve that gives out these loans (even to the government, the federal reserve is J.P. Morgan Chase bank, they charge the country on every dollar that is printed, they are a private enterprise. As is the I.R.S.) and causes us to have these utterly massive comapnies, more massive then they can sustain on their own.
This has made us enter the age of borrowing, since these companies can't support themselves due to their size they must borrow billions more dollars, the government doesn't have the money so they borrow from other countries and banks, which they print out of nothing.
So our entire planet is built on artificial growth, and its crumbling.
What we need to do is fix our problem with government. We need to go to the root of the issue that's causing the decline of health care, education, and economy. We are entrusting the very entity that caused these problems due to their own greed and incompetence to fix it...
They will continue to do the same corrupt and greedy things that are destroying this country and the world. So i don't trust anything that comes from it. There will be some terrible issue with any health care reform they pump out. Or any tax they create. I mean when they say tax the top 5 percent of people.... the government is in that tax bracket.. Do we really expect them to make things harder on themselves? Of course not...
So bottom line.. We need to focus on whats causing the problems, and not try to put a band-aid on a crumbling dam..
The issue lies in the system itself. what we need to do is completely reboot and restructure the whole thing.. But i do not see how that can be done without the system completely collapsing.. Which if things keep on their present course unchanged will happen much sooner then most people would think...
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:52 pm
Rose By Moonlight Hey, I just joined and being the way I am immediately clicked the Political discussions area.
I've lived in the United States for my entire life. I personally am against Health Care because if the bill is passed, my hard earned money will end up going to someone that doesn't deserve it. I know you may think I'm inhuman for believing that someone doesn't deserve health care, but if they're not going to work for it, why should they get it? I understand that people have trouble getting their feet on the ground when they start their own businesses, or if they get a divorce, or something of the sort. But everyone, no matter what, has the ability to go out and get a job. Over here places like McDonald's and Burger King give health insurance to their employees. Sure it's not full coverage, but it's basic, which is exactly what the government plans to give us if we have a government run health care plan.
And can we trust the government to make a humane and well working health plan? They prove time and time again that we can't...
They are the reason everything is like this.. How can we trust a bill that's 2,000 pages long, costs a trillion dollars that we don't have That was written by corrupt lawyers?
And at the end of the day each person is given the same opportunity. Some work hard and make it big, others don't work hard and get nowhere. Some work hard but fall victim to circumstance. But in my experience not too many people end up like that. Most of the time the poor homeless class got there due to their own mistakes. And i'm sorry, but there should be a system in place that gives an ultimatum..
If you are receiving benefits from the taxpayers you have to be devote like 6 hours a day to finding a job and trying to get back on your feet.. I see so many people just sitting back and doing nothing, living off taxpayer money..
If you are not even attempting to be a productive member of society then you deserve no benefits. If you are trying constantly to get back on your feet and become self sustaining, well perhaps we can work something out.
No one deserves to get free handouts from taxpayer money while they do absolutely nothing to earn it, and to get out from it.
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mr cloudies best friend Captain
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:18 am
mr cloudies best friend Rose By Moonlight Hey, I just joined and being the way I am immediately clicked the Political discussions area.
I've lived in the United States for my entire life. I personally am against Health Care because if the bill is passed, my hard earned money will end up going to someone that doesn't deserve it. I know you may think I'm inhuman for believing that someone doesn't deserve health care, but if they're not going to work for it, why should they get it? I understand that people have trouble getting their feet on the ground when they start their own businesses, or if they get a divorce, or something of the sort. But everyone, no matter what, has the ability to go out and get a job. Over here places like McDonald's and Burger King give health insurance to their employees. Sure it's not full coverage, but it's basic, which is exactly what the government plans to give us if we have a government run health care plan.
And can we trust the government to make a humane and well working health plan? They prove time and time again that we can't...
They are the reason everything is like this.. How can we trust a bill that's 2,000 pages long, costs a trillion dollars that we don't have That was written by corrupt lawyers?
And at the end of the day each person is given the same opportunity. Some work hard and make it big, others don't work hard and get nowhere. Some work hard but fall victim to circumstance. But in my experience not too many people end up like that. Most of the time the poor homeless class got there due to their own mistakes. And i'm sorry, but there should be a system in place that gives an ultimatum..
If you are receiving benefits from the taxpayers you have to be devote like 6 hours a day to finding a job and trying to get back on your feet.. I see so many people just sitting back and doing nothing, living off taxpayer money..
If you are not even attempting to be a productive member of society then you deserve no benefits. If you are trying constantly to get back on your feet and become self sustaining, well perhaps we can work something out.
No one deserves to get free handouts from taxpayer money while they do absolutely nothing to earn it, and to get out from it.
You explained that so much better than I managed to do. I might be against health care, but my facts are not as straight as I would like them to be. I completely agree with you on this entire situation though.
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:10 am
I would say there are two important things to consider when discussing universal health care.
1) The mechanism of insurance companies is corrupt. Initially we created insurance companies as a way of helping everyone out who was involved. As capitalism spread, it became a monetary venture, one for profit. This means that each year, the surplus made from charging more than what you pay out is dumped into bank accounts instead of being used the next year. It's a shame that a service created to help people has been turned into a way of ripping them off each and every year.
2) Medical companies over charge. Insurance wouldn't really be necessary if the services and medicine people needed weren't inflated in price by a factor of thousands.
These two factors will hinder any growth of a workable universal health care system. We trade so very much without realising.... just for the opportunity to profit off someone else. :S
I think capitalism is a good thing.. but only if it is regulated. Most online games have a regulated market. Why? Because it isn't long before someone has the leverage to play with it...
TLDR ver: Universal health care won't happen until we evaluate the effectiveness of our insurance policies, and limit markup on medical products. wink
Peace and love. heart
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:48 pm
I think us Americans, particularly Southerners, dislike socialism because it gives the government to much power. For the free health care bill, I think that most of the people who are against it, are against it because they don't like the idea of just giving out something like health care for free to unproductive members of society. Inner city ghetto blacks, white trash, and mexican illegal immigrants just name a couple... Well I don't see Illegals as a member of our society, but as a sort of counter society. I hate people who abuse the system, I mean hell, it's practicly already broke.
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:12 am
Rose By Moonlight mr cloudies best friend Rose By Moonlight Hey, I just joined and being the way I am immediately clicked the Political discussions area.
I've lived in the United States for my entire life. I personally am against Health Care because if the bill is passed, my hard earned money will end up going to someone that doesn't deserve it. I know you may think I'm inhuman for believing that someone doesn't deserve health care, but if they're not going to work for it, why should they get it? I understand that people have trouble getting their feet on the ground when they start their own businesses, or if they get a divorce, or something of the sort. But everyone, no matter what, has the ability to go out and get a job. Over here places like McDonald's and Burger King give health insurance to their employees. Sure it's not full coverage, but it's basic, which is exactly what the government plans to give us if we have a government run health care plan.
And can we trust the government to make a humane and well working health plan? They prove time and time again that we can't...
They are the reason everything is like this.. How can we trust a bill that's 2,000 pages long, costs a trillion dollars that we don't have That was written by corrupt lawyers?
And at the end of the day each person is given the same opportunity. Some work hard and make it big, others don't work hard and get nowhere. Some work hard but fall victim to circumstance. But in my experience not too many people end up like that. Most of the time the poor homeless class got there due to their own mistakes. And i'm sorry, but there should be a system in place that gives an ultimatum..
If you are receiving benefits from the taxpayers you have to be devote like 6 hours a day to finding a job and trying to get back on your feet.. I see so many people just sitting back and doing nothing, living off taxpayer money..
If you are not even attempting to be a productive member of society then you deserve no benefits. If you are trying constantly to get back on your feet and become self sustaining, well perhaps we can work something out.
No one deserves to get free handouts from taxpayer money while they do absolutely nothing to earn it, and to get out from it.
You explained that so much better than I managed to do. I might be against health care, but my facts are not as straight as I would like them to be. I completely agree with you on this entire situation though.
Thank you. :3
Its not that i don't think we should be a compassionate society that helps the people in need.
I just think it should be done privately. (forcing money out of one groups hands and giving to another is wrong no matter the reason) and to people who are actually in need and striving to better their situation.
Every day i see the government making our situation so much worse.. its really sad...
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mr cloudies best friend Captain
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:58 am
I'm going to have to say that the system is very very close to shattering into billions of little pieces. Then we'll all be screwed. Most American's in our generation know that Social Security will never be able to support any of us because of the Baby Boom the generation before. I don't need any more of my money going to someone who doesn't deserve it.
Oh, and your welcome Cloudy. =)
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:15 pm
It's not the fact that I have a problem with socialism, you just can't incorporate certain parts of socialism into a completely capitalistc society. In the end, it'll crumble and ruin.
Also, national healthcare is a hot topic because the middle class will yet again be burdened the majority of taxes for that. We will have to pay for our own health and those of the poor. As if it isn't hard enough these days to pay for everything else.
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mr cloudies best friend Captain
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:11 pm
malapropism life It's not the fact that I have a problem with socialism, you just can't incorporate certain parts of socialism into a completely capitalistc society. In the end, it'll crumble and ruin. Also, national healthcare is a hot topic because the middle class will yet again be burdened the majority of taxes for that. We will have to pay for our own health and those of the poor. As if it isn't hard enough these days to pay for everything else.
Exactly, its actually becoming harder to be middle class then it is to be poverty stricken.. If your poor there is all osrts of systems in place to help pay for: food, medical bills etc..
But if your making just enough money to not qualify for these programs... Well then your ******** and no one will help you, which then turns you into the poor class where you have to use these programs.. Instead of creating wealth our systems are creating poverty...
And we are making this new program to further damage the middle class..
I was talking to my parents and the calculated that 40% of their yearly income goes to the government. And now they have to take out second mortgages, get credit cards, and borrow money to keep their house and business afloat..
If the government takes 50% My parents will lose everything.
We can't burden the middle class any farther.. Unless we want a complete economic meltdown.. Something that will make this recession look like child's play...
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:29 pm
mr cloudies best friend
And at the end of the day each person is given the same opportunity. Some work hard and make it big, others don't work hard and get nowhere. Some work hard but fall victim to circumstance. But in my experience not too many people end up like that. Most of the time the poor homeless class got there due to their own mistakes. And i'm sorry, but there should be a system in place that gives an ultimatum..
Personally, I don't believe now is the right time to bring the Universal Health Care in for America, but I believe it should be brought in. I know there have been times this year where I would have avoided going to the doctor completely if it wasn't for the fact I was able to receive bulk billing from my university health care service; I simply didn't have $70 in the bank. American friends have told me the same thing. No one deserves to be in that position; no matter what they have or have not done to create their wealth deficit.
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mr cloudies best friend Captain
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:29 pm
daaayum girl mr cloudies best friend
And at the end of the day each person is given the same opportunity. Some work hard and make it big, others don't work hard and get nowhere. Some work hard but fall victim to circumstance. But in my experience not too many people end up like that. Most of the time the poor homeless class got there due to their own mistakes. And i'm sorry, but there should be a system in place that gives an ultimatum..
Personally, I don't believe now is the right time to bring the Universal Health Care in for America, but I believe it should be brought in. I know there have been times this year where I would have avoided going to the doctor completely if it wasn't for the fact I was able to receive bulk billing from my university health care service; I simply didn't have $70 in the bank. American friends have told me the same thing. No one deserves to be in that position; no matter what they have or have not done to create their wealth deficit.
True to a certain extent.
Some people do have it happen as a victim of circumstance. And for them systems should be in place. But so many people abuse the system we have. We need to make sure that the people receiving benefits are doing something to get out of their situation and become self sustaining.
I know several people who have been unemployed for 8 months and have turned in 6 applications in that time..
She just got christmas paid for by a charity organization,
she just got her housing paid for..
she gets $600 a month in food stamps.
and she gets unemployment.
she has every intention of staying in her situation. This is seen time and time again.
And the middle class does not have an infinite capacity to support themselves and on top of that the poorer class too.
As i said, if taxes increase much more my parents could lose their house.
We CANNOT tax the middle class any more at all.. And the rags to riches story isn't as rare as many people would think.. After all obama started from absolutely nothing.. What he got a handout? No he worked for it. with motivation and drive you really can achieve just about anything.
My parents, for a while they where homeless in the 80s. they worked to the bone to start a business and was able to finally pull out from it. My aunt and uncle, same story.. Poverty stricken. Worked like crazy and now they own a multi million dollar construction company. Family friend same, started from nothing now owns a multi million dollar company. another set of aunts and uncles same.. i can name off about 4 other people too.
They started with literally nothing at all. So you see i can name off 10 people that i KNOW that have startedc from nothing and built themselves up through hard work. Look at any business in this country and you will most likely find the same story. We are given the same opportunities.
And besides government helping people in the end keeps them poor. We need to step back and let the system repair itself, if the government didn't have its hand in everything, and didn't have SO much red tape for every little thing. Well maybe this country would get back on track.
And when people are free to donate what and when they want, well we'll see community come back. When someone sees a homeless person now they say "well someone should really help them! Why isn't the government doing something about this?"
Thats the kind of mentality we need to abandon... We need to fix this country, the government can't do it no matter how much fake money they throw at it. We need to stop being so dependent of the government and help these people and fix the economy ourselfes.
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:46 pm
⇒I read an article as I waited in the doctor's surgery yesterday. It was about a man who took out short term insurance because while he was employed, his job didn't provide any health insurance. He was searching for another job but to cover him in the mean time he was taking six month policies. He avoided going to the doctor because it would be so expensive even with insurance; when he did, he found out that there were extra proteins in his urine. Because this test was conducted near the end of one of his short term policies, when he took out the next one he wasn't covered for any of the treatment that followed because it now counted as a pre-existing condition.
He was charged over $9000 for a procedure that, for someone insured, would have cost $700, and they would have had to pay less than half of that. He re-mortgaged the house he owned to pay for treatment to his kidneys. And he is only alive because the specialist he saw recognised the fact he didn't have adequate insurance but was willing to proceed anyway. I don't believe in a modern society there should be stories like that. He didn't start as a homeless, unemployed man, but not for the kindness of doctors and a supporting family, he would have ended up as one.
I know people who cheat the welfare system, who use their money for pot and booze. I also know that I can't receive welfare payments, despite the fact I've done the right thing throughout my life - they reward those who haven't. I commend your family for fighting through the struggle; I know similar stories, hell, my mother is one. But I also believe that they should get assistance in some way to help them from that bottom of the ladder. Should it stop at some point? Yes. But I don't know how you could quantify that point. And I don't think universal health care is something that should stop at any point.
As I said, I don't believe that now is necessarily the right time for universal health care. A recession is not the time to place another 1.5% tax (as it is in Australia) on top of struggling families. But in the future, I believe that it should be instituted.
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mr cloudies best friend Captain
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:50 pm
daaayum girl ⇒I read an article as I waited in the doctor's surgery yesterday. It was about a man who took out short term insurance because while he was employed, his job didn't provide any health insurance. He was searching for another job but to cover him in the mean time he was taking six month policies. He avoided going to the doctor because it would be so expensive even with insurance; when he did, he found out that there were extra proteins in his urine. Because this test was conducted near the end of one of his short term policies, when he took out the next one he wasn't covered for any of the treatment that followed because it now counted as a pre-existing condition.
He was charged over $9000 for a procedure that, for someone insured, would have cost $700, and they would have had to pay less than half of that. He re-mortgaged the house he owned to pay for treatment to his kidneys. And he is only alive because the specialist he saw recognised the fact he didn't have adequate insurance but was willing to proceed anyway. I don't believe in a modern society there should be stories like that. He didn't start as a homeless, unemployed man, but not for the kindness of doctors and a supporting family, he would have ended up as one.
I know people who cheat the welfare system, who use their money for pot and booze. I also know that I can't receive welfare payments, despite the fact I've done the right thing throughout my life - they reward those who haven't. I commend your family for fighting through the struggle; I know similar stories, hell, my mother is one. But I also believe that they should get assistance in some way to help them from that bottom of the ladder. Should it stop at some point? Yes. But I don't know how you could quantify that point. And I don't think universal health care is something that should stop at any point.
As I said, I don't believe that now is necessarily the right time for universal health care. A recession is not the time to place another 1.5% tax (as it is in Australia) on top of struggling families. But in the future, I believe that it should be instituted.
I agree there should be systems in place to help people for sure. But i would like to see it more private because that seems to work better most of the time. Just getting funding for those private charities can be a real pain, so it tends to get government grants.
But i'm just saying that the benefits should come with an ultimatum that if you aren't trying to better yourself, through school, finding a job or something like that. That the benefits will be cut. That way we can get the benefits to the people that need it. And that are trying to fight there way out of it.
Naturally we can't just leave these people to the wolves. We NEED homeless shelters, medicare, affordable insurance, if the government does come up with a competent insurance solution i'm all for it. I just doubt our government will do the right thing. Too many times have they proven they can't be trusted to do much of anything well..
So yeah we'll have to see how this plays out. And i certainly hope the government does do the right thing and prove my cynicism wrong. One thing is for sure.. we need to change things now. Because the medical industry (among other things) is destroying us. If we don't fix some of these problems FAST.. Well we could be looking at a depression on our hands.. We CAN'T have the middle class collapse. If it does it could start a chain reaction.. So we have to do what we can to make things more affordable before things get to far gone..
I'm not really apposed to a competent well working universal health care plan. Just as long as the government doesn't take advantage of it, and use it to take more money and freedoms from people.
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