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 Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:41 pm
I'm not a Christian, but I'm still fairly convinced that, historically speaking, Jesus was a real person. The thing is, I don't really know what I'm basing this on. How much evidence is there that Jesus existed (other than the Bible...)? Also, how much proof do we need that a person existed in order to accept it? For example, I honestly wouldn't be able to prove that Socrates, Buddha, or any other ancient figures existed; I just believe they do because I have no reason not to, I guess. So, if you guys know if any early non-Biblical writings about Jesus or other forms of proof that he existed, please tell.
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:44 pm
Actually, archeologists discovered his family tomb, which held Mary, James, and a few other relatives. Beyond that, I don't know of any.
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:52 pm
XxBroken_And_ShatteredxX Actually, archeologists discovered his family tomb, which held Mary, James, and a few other relatives. Beyond that, I don't know of any. Okay, I'll look into that. Thanks.
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:54 pm
Julri XxBroken_And_ShatteredxX Actually, archeologists discovered his family tomb, which held Mary, James, and a few other relatives. Beyond that, I don't know of any. Okay, I'll look into that. Thanks. No, they didn't. He's referring to a tomb that was found on the ground of an apartment building in Jerusalem. A silly documentary that James Cameron did. There is absolutely no evidence for the historicity of Jesus. He's about as proven as Homer and Lycurgus. It's already proven that the James Ossuary is ABSOLUTELY a fake. The Jehoash inscription is a forgery. Before people get on my case, archaeological ethics is my obsession, and I am indeed a student of archaeology. My main concern is Middle Eastern history and archaeology. I've even met Jodi Magness, and I am leaving for Israel in eight days. I'm also not being biased because for as Jewish as I want to be, I will be the first person to argue the historical accuracy of Josephus' account of Masada, and absolutely question what in Tanakh is historically unsupported.
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:00 pm
In Medias Res IV Julri XxBroken_And_ShatteredxX Actually, archeologists discovered his family tomb, which held Mary, James, and a few other relatives. Beyond that, I don't know of any. Okay, I'll look into that. Thanks. No, they didn't. He's referring to a tomb that was found on the ground of an apartment building in Jerusalem. A silly documentary that James Cameron did. There is absolutely no evidence for the historicity of Jesus. He's about as proven as Homer and Lycurgus. It's already proven that the James Ossuary is ABSOLUTELY a fake. The Jehoash inscription is a forgery. Before people get on my case, archaeological ethics is my obsession, and I am indeed a student of archaeology. My main concern is Middle Eastern history and archaeology. I've even met Jodi Magness and I am leaving for Israel in eight days. I'm sorry. I didn't know it was a fake.
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:04 pm
XxBroken_And_ShatteredxX In Medias Res IV Julri XxBroken_And_ShatteredxX Actually, archeologists discovered his family tomb, which held Mary, James, and a few other relatives. Beyond that, I don't know of any. Okay, I'll look into that. Thanks. No, they didn't. He's referring to a tomb that was found on the ground of an apartment building in Jerusalem. A silly documentary that James Cameron did. There is absolutely no evidence for the historicity of Jesus. He's about as proven as Homer and Lycurgus. It's already proven that the James Ossuary is ABSOLUTELY a fake. The Jehoash inscription is a forgery. Before people get on my case, archaeological ethics is my obsession, and I am indeed a student of archaeology. My main concern is Middle Eastern history and archaeology. I've even met Jodi Magness and I am leaving for Israel in eight days. I'm sorry. I didn't know it was a fake. Yeah, you and many other people for many years. It's sad really... it's like how people are still teaching that the Phaistos disc and the site of Troy is actually real. I've been to Troy, it was anti-climactic
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:33 pm
I think I remember a show referring to Jesus Christ and Jesus of Bethlehem as two different people.
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:57 pm
Julri I'm not a Christian, but I'm still fairly convinced that, historically speaking, Jesus was a real person. The thing is, I don't really know what I'm basing this on. How much evidence is there that Jesus existed (other than the Bible...)? Also, how much proof do we need that a person existed in order to accept it? For example, I honestly wouldn't be able to prove that Socrates, Buddha, or any other ancient figures existed; I just believe they do because I have no reason not to, I guess. So, if you guys know if any early non-Biblical writings about Jesus or other forms of proof that he existed, please tell. There's a plethora of evidence making the case for a historical Jesus that fits the basic criteria for the Jesus you see in the bible. As soon as I find the time I'll post what I have on it but it might not be until January. Lately I've either been working or getting ready for family and the holidays in general xp
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Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:03 am
@IMR
I must ask you why do you accept the late dating (140 CE) of the Gospel of Thomas as opposed to the early dating (40 CE)?
Personally there seems to be more evidence of this document being contemporary especially since James the Just is explicitly defined as the leader of the Church as opposed to tradition's teaching that Peter is the leader.
The significance of this is that James the Just is called a Judaizer by Tradition because he required that one must be Jew before one could be a member of the religious system attributed to the man called Jesus.
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Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:15 am
If you are looking for physical evidence, beyond what the Bible says about Him, you won't find any, because according the Four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) He was resurrected.
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Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:09 pm
Semiremis Julri I'm not a Christian, but I'm still fairly convinced that, historically speaking, Jesus was a real person. The thing is, I don't really know what I'm basing this on. How much evidence is there that Jesus existed (other than the Bible...)? Also, how much proof do we need that a person existed in order to accept it? For example, I honestly wouldn't be able to prove that Socrates, Buddha, or any other ancient figures existed; I just believe they do because I have no reason not to, I guess. So, if you guys know if any early non-Biblical writings about Jesus or other forms of proof that he existed, please tell. There's a plethora of evidence making the case for a historical Jesus that fits the basic criteria for the Jesus you see in the bible. As soon as I find the time I'll post what I have on it but it might not be until January. Lately I've either been working or getting ready for family and the holidays in general xp Ah, that's fine. I can wait till January.
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Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:34 pm
Shadows-shine If you are looking for physical evidence, beyond what the Bible says about Him, you won't find any, because according the Four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) He was resurrected. You are correct he is resurrected; but he made a promise " that he must go away but he would send a comforter, the Holy Spirit, that would lead and guide us through/to all truth. For the ones that have been led and produced and produced as a result of the leading; would'nt that be some proof or evidence?
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Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:17 pm
He's a historical person in the sense of his role in history, but I really don't believe he existed physically.
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:27 am
quietstorm 2 Shadows-shine If you are looking for physical evidence, beyond what the Bible says about Him, you won't find any, because according the Four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) He was resurrected. You are correct he is resurrected; but he made a promise " that he must go away but he would send a comforter, the Holy Spirit, that would lead and guide us through/to all truth. For the ones that have been led and produced and produced as a result of the leading; would'nt that be some proof or evidence? There are some who looking for physical, proveable evidence beyond some one's tesitmony about the Lord.
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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:29 am
All right, so I started with the basics and can get back to you with more later on since I left so much out. I just thought I'd get this out there so you'd have something to start looking at. Part I: On the Historicity of Jesus (the basics):First and foremost I think it very important to keep in mind the status of Jesus during the time period both within and outside of Palestine, under the assumption that he did exist. Jesus became posthumously famous, during his life he was relatively unknown and that became even truer as you move further outside of his sphere of influence. He was just another man out of the many that the Romans had crucified so the question you all need to be thinking about isn’t why there is so little information on Jesus, but why there is so much supporting evidence outside of the bible, through oral tradition (and yes that is accepted as valid when it comes to recording history assuming certain precepts were satisfied) and through written works. We’ll start with the latter: Josephus: Yes I do dare to use his name. I don’t know how many are familiar with him or ‘his’ notorious paragraph concerning Jesus in his Antiquities of the Jews: Quote: 3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-18.htm I don’t really understand those who would cite him without a word of caution, that paragraph is widely accepted by scholars as an insertion later on made by Christian Scribes. The reason why I cite him is because of the likelihood that he had mentioned Jesus, or at the very least a Christ figure since Christians would have most likely inserted that passage after John the Baptist was mentioned if they were just randomly creating instead of embellishing, either way I wanted to clear things up when it comes to Josephus as a source. It’s iffy and hardly evidence but suggestive especially since all of the manuscripts that we do have contain the exact same insertion… Then you have Chapter 20 which also mentions a man named Jesus, called Christ who was also the brother of James: Quote: and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-20.htm I almost forgot about this one, it’s something I haven’t really looked into too much so I’m not sure where it stands in the scheme of things but there is mention of a Yeshu (who is thought by some to be the Christian Jesus) who was born to a woman out of wedlock who was seduced by a Roman soldier, he performed ‘magic’ and was executed on the eve of Passover. http://judaism.about.com/od/beliefs/a/jesus.htm Tacitus: For those of you who are unfamiliar with Tacitus, he was a Roman historian who was born in the middle of the first century. His work that concerns us is located in Annals 15 (44)Quote: Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a15040.htm The Majority of Scholars do not question the authenticity of this passage but a few do. I think one of the issues has to do with Tacitus referring to Pontius Pilate as a procurator when he was actually a prefect. That and there are no references made by early Christians to the passage in Annals concerning the Christians but neither really take away from the fact that the above passage is nothing like what you see in the forged writing made in Josephus’ Antiquities which is very Christian friendly. The passage in Annals is not since tortures were inflicted on the Christians who are a ‘class hated’ which is done for their ‘abominations’. Does that really sound like an insert made by a Christian Scribe? It doesn't add up. I think I’ll leave it here for now (I'm still short on time but I'll be back, there's much much more to tell). If what you all are looking for is some recorded evidence straight from the hand of Jesus then I’m afraid you’re going to be disappointed. If you think that that is what is needed to establish the historical Christ then I’m afraid you are a fool. I did not get into the oral tradition, I did not get into early Christian texts, I did not mention the greatest source the New Testament of the bible and more specifically the gospels which consist of a compilation of different pericopes set into larger groupings which were not just written all at once as some people seem to think it was. You guys asked for written evidence outside of the bible and I provided you with some of it, it is there, the evidence is there and it's stacked upon a hell of a lot of supporting evidence so deny that if you will but don’t be stupid, at least recognize it first and realize that a culture so heavily dependent upon oral tradition is not going to have people running around with pen and paper in hand writing down every little detail. The fact that we have what we have speaks volumes. Sources: The Historical Figure of Jesus by E.P. Sanders Penguin Books 1995 Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm Josephus. Antiquities of the Jews. http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-18.htm Tacitus. Annals 15. http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a15040.htm Talmud (Yeshu) http://judaism.about.com/od/beliefs/a/jesus.htm *Side note, I don't know when I'll be able to get back on with more the reason I was able to get you a little bit of info today was because work called and said I wasn't needed today so I got a surprise day off.
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