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So what are people's thoughts on Loki? Aside from giving him a slight nod when I honor Odin I don't have much experience with Loki. I'm personally a little nervous about even doing the offerings when I do give them to him.

Then I don't think it was Fenrir. Fenrir is a wolf, Jormugud is the world serpent, Hel is the Goddess of the underworld and Slepnir is Odin's horse. So how do you know it was Fenrir if he was not as a mighty wolf?I wouldn't say trickster more like chaos. Every chaotic action that Loki has done has while angered the Gods and annoyed them, been for the benefit of change and growth. With out chaos there can be no changes in order and no growth. He went a step too far with his insults to the other Gods. His children were delt those fates because they were uncontrolable. Loki is a giant from Jotenheim, but is also Odin's blood brother so there is something there. That's why I always hold a toast to Loki when I honor Odin. It was written in the lore to do so and I do my best.He still went to far. To be fair the Gods also fear him because of his role in Ragnarock. In that Loki will play an essential role in the fall of Odin and Asgard Marvel got right, only it's not the giants he will lead but the dead. Loki is the antithesis of Odin's order and yet they can not exist with out each other. Loki's freedom brings about ragnarock, the end of the Gods and the war between the Gods and the Giants. Only two humans will be spared within Yggdrasil. That's part of it.

Though I have to admit I was drawn to the Germanic paths because of a dream I had where Loki was being called and I was the one hiding him.

There was one thing you said that confused me.


Loki' being a giant I feel doesn't factor in this conversation as much with Odin being half giant himself. However Loki's blood combined with Angurboda does result in a very strange way. We see that his children with Sigyn are normal, or unlike their half siblings. Hel's only fault was her looks, half dying and half living. Fenrir was a wolf. Jormungandr was a snake. But I have to ask why you see his children as uncontrollable.

But how are they uncontrollable? Growth is different than unable to listen or going against the norms, orders, or society. I know of only two times Thor and Jormungander ever meet. The first is when Thor is out fishing for dinner with the giant Hymir. The next time I know of is when the end is happening, Thor and Jormungander killing each other. Fenrir is chained for his fate, the Norns telling the Æsir that he will kill Odin. But before that Fenrir was seen as just like any wolf. But with the combination of his fate and his growth he was seen as dangerous (though all wolves are dangerous). So, I must ask how one defines uncontrollable in this case?

I don't understand Ragnarok...

While to the people of this time it makes sense to have an ending to the gods and the birth of a new world, I don't understand it in the context of how it plays for the gods. They knew what was going to happen, the signs to when it would begin, the key players and the end, but I don't see how that works. If they new that there would be an end, then whatever. But to know so much seems so weird. You bring up Thor's obsession with killing Jurmundgandr, yet wouldn't that be because he knew of how they would kill each other because of the fear he may have held that such a large creature would be the one to end it and his hope that if he killed him before the end it would change fate. And by knowing it, and maybe even changing it wouldn't they just be accomplishing a fate anyway.

How could one function in such a reality. It makes me think of Oedipus and his fate. He ran to try not to fulfill the prophecy yet ends up doing so anyway. By having the gods know are the forcing the events to happen... And in that case, a god like Loki, who courts chaos like a lover, who finds joy in tricks and riddles, would see this reality as a chance to do whatever because no matter what happens this is going to be the fate and his place will be against the Aesir. Yet... why like this. Why Loki vs Odin, blood brother for so long, maybe even before the Aesir/Vanir war. Ok so Loki had some very crazy kids, maybe we should watch them to make sure nothing bad happens. Oh, Baldr is dead, yet he knew he was going to die. Yet when everything is over he comes back to life and so does the brother that killed him...

Sorry for my rambles.

In some ways it does as Loki seems to have more allies in the realm of the Jotun than he does in the realm of the Aesir. At least that's been my impression. He also seems to spend more time there than any other deity. Thor travels there a-lot, but he doesn't seem to live there like Loki does.

Odin doesn't seem to display the trickster and challenger aspects of his Jotun heritage as much as Loki does. Yes they both are tricksters and magicians, but Loki seems to relish more in trickery and deception than Odin. Only Loki could convince Thor to dress up as Freya (that's actually one of my favorite Loki and Thor tales).

One who is half dead and half alive, One who is a giant snake, and one who is a wolf that can not stop growing and will father the ones who swallow the sun and moon. Yeah those are strange. My favorite child of Loki though is Slepinir. Gotta love and 8 legged horse that belongs to the All Father. Who are Loki's children with his wife?My experiences with her have her being beautiful in both states. One has the rosy completion of life and the other has the white purity of death and darkness which holds the mysteries of death. For me Hel actually embodies exactly what the Underworld is about and what death actually means. Its beautiful, elegant, and fearful all at once, which is why I love her.Who grew so powerful only Tyr could feed him. I actually see the true meaing of Tyr's sacrifice these days when I look at everything my fiance sacrificed to provide a home and a life for me. It's one of the reason Tyr is his patron God.I see him as the reason there are so many tales of deadly and powerful sea serpents that if you gain their wrath will destroy you. He is so large that he is encircling himself and has started to swallow his own body. I have a relationship with him, but it's not in the same as when I say I have a relationship with Odin and Frigga.The lore describes them as such which is why they were given the fates they have. They were beyond the abilities of the Gods to contain without those drastic measures, though I do agree with you about Hel. She at least gets to rule her own realm.

I have to agree. Every action that Loki has done has caused change of some sort, and useually that change is productive and for the better, even if the means are sometimes questionable in the eyes of the other Gods. It makes sense that if you are honoring Thor and his travels you'd honor his favorite traveling companion. I've found that the majority of the myths involving the Thunderer's travels involve Loki. I also associate Loki with laughter. In some ways through Lokesanna (sp?) he teaches us to laugh at our selves and our faults, to admit where we are weak and to work on it. That's what I always got out of those taunts.

His actions with the Giants Stallion allowed the Aesir to win their wager and thus change was brought. While he was the reason Freya lost her necklace to a Jotun, he was also the one to bring it back.

Every thing he does he typically undos. He causes change, but not with out risk. He is the catalyst for change and as such is also the bringer of order in some ways.

It also seems he was smarter than the Gods believed him to be, because his final binding was enchanted and he knew it. That's why he made the Aesir swear an oath that there was no enchantment or trickery. That's why Tyr sacrificed his arm and is in many way the God of meaningful self Sacrifice.

Thanks for the link. I'll have to read it and check it out.

You misunderstand. When I said the Wanderer, I was referring to Odinn. The Wanderer is one of Odinn's many kennings.

And the Gods didn't really think Fenrir was stupid, just dangerous. Of course he was suspicious of that last cord. They'd already tried to bind him twice. Only a fool would think it was just a game. Tyr knew he would lose his hand for the lie but he also knew it had to be done.

And howlstar, parentage can be a funny thing. Notice I also mentioned that there are even versions where it is Fenrir himself who devours the Sun and Moon, though not versions I'm terribly familiar with. I'm also not well versed in the origins of Skoll and Hati but that's one of the variants I've come across. Actually a lot of the lore can be confusing because in many cases, there are more then one version of a story. It's all about who your source is and how you interpret it. For example, there's several more versions of the Baldr myth then the one most know from Snorri. And they're all quite different from each other.

And you last paragraph is in reference to what? I know it's about Loki, though it took me a moment as you had no transition, but what is it in response to? By the way, in Scandinavian folklore Loki is also thought to have given birth to a number of children by humans. Yes he was a woman at the time. It was thing he did.