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Loona Wynd
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Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 2:53 pm

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

Most people are familiar with the famous "Wiccan" Rede: An it harm none do what ye will.

I do not follow that rede exactly, though it does play a part in my ethics and moral considerations. My ethics are rather eclectic much like my practice.

So how would you describe your ethical standards?

Does this come from a source text (myth, writing, ect)?

How did this come about to you?

Are there consequences for not following your ethics?

By the power of the mind much is possible

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:18 pm

I'm an ethical egoist. Expounded, that means that I serve my own interests above all. But it is to my advantage to live in a world where there is a social contract, so I abide by many rules that I don't necessarily endorse. And it is to my advantage to live amongst people who don't do random acts of unprovoked harm, so I try to not do harm unless, after consideration, I feel like I could live with it if everyone acted as I do.

Not inspired by any myths, just way too much reading on moral philosophy.

phantomkitsune

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Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:27 pm

My ethics stem from social norms and I try to follow the 42 principles of Maat, even though it is hard. The principles of Maat were where the ten commandments came from and they come from the Egyptian path. The consequences of not following these would come at my trial in the afterlife. But I try to hold myself to an ideal high standard but I do fall short of it at times.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 6:28 am

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

phantomkitsune

I'm an ethical egoist.

That is not something I have come across before.

phantomkitsune

Expounded, that means that I serve my own interests above all.

Does that mean wen you help another you are doing it simply because it serves your self interest?

phantomkitsune

But it is to my advantage to live in a world where there is a social contract, so I abide by many rules that I don't necessarily endorse.

Which rules/laws dont you endorse and why?

phantomkitsune

And it is to my advantage to live amongst people who don't do random acts of unprovoked harm,

well your going to find that basically any where because it happens in human society. I honestly think it will be many more centuries before we rise above random acts of violence.

phantomkitsune

so I try to not do harm unless, after consideration, I feel like I could live with it if everyone acted as I do.

I kinda like that. That's sort of how I feel about hexes and curses. I'll use them but only if I can live with the repercussions of the situation. I also feel that more people should act that way. Don't use force unless necessary and then only use the least amount needed.

phantomkitsune

Not inspired by any myths, just way too much reading on moral philosophy.

Like what sorts of books?

By the power of the mind much is possible

Loona Wynd
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 6:32 am

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

Underworld Priestess

My ethics stem from social norms

And where do those social norms stem from? In many cases they are Christian influenced.

Underworld Priestess

and I try to follow the 42 principles of Maat, even though it is hard.

What are some of these principles? Are there some that are more difficult to follow than others?

Underworld Priestess

The principles of Maat were where the ten commandments came from and they come from the Egyptian path.

Really? Do you have a source for this?

Underworld Priestess

The consequences of not following these would come at my trial in the afterlife.

Where your heart is weighed against the feather of Maat?

Underworld Priestess

But I try to hold myself to an ideal high standard but I do fall short of it at times.

We all do. All we can do is our best.

By the power of the mind much is possible

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:08 pm

Loona Wynd

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

phantomkitsune

I'm an ethical egoist.

That is not something I have come across before.

Wiki Also it should be noted, since some of my statements aren't observably in line with ethical egoism, that I have come to the conclusion that it is in my best interest to live amongst people who generally behave as utilitarians; many people working for the good of the whole will benefit me, since I am part of the whole.

Quote:

Does that mean wen you help another you are doing it simply because it serves your self interest?

Yes. I help people I care about because it makes me happy to see them happy. I help other people when it has a benefit for me.

Quote:

Which rules/laws dont you endorse and why?

Mostly the ones about people you have to show respect to. They're minor, yes, but I really despise them in some situations. I'm a competent person, an know my field reasonably well. Having hard-earned knowledge dismissed because I am a few decades younger than some of my peers, and being expected and pressured to show respect to people who have no idea what they are talking about but are "respected" (old, retired, and competent at their old profession, even if it has nothing to do with my field) bothers me.

Quote:

Well your going to find that basically any where because it happens in human society. I honestly think it will be many more centuries before we rise above random acts of violence.

Oh, I doubt we ever will rise above violence. I just like to encourage it not being random.

Quote:

Like what sorts of books?

Elements of Moral Philosophy by James Rachels, The Republic by Plato, and a bunch of essays, mostly by Rachels and Immanuel Kant. Really interesting reading, if you're in a mindset to enjoy it. I read The Republic in school the first time, and didn't enjoy it the way I did rereading it later, but I understood it a lot more because I had people to discuss and dissect it with.

phantomkitsune

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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:08 pm

Loona Wynd

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

Underworld Priestess

My ethics stem from social norms

And where do those social norms stem from? In many cases they are Christian influenced.

Underworld Priestess

and I try to follow the 42 principles of Maat, even though it is hard.

What are some of these principles? Are there some that are more difficult to follow than others?

Underworld Priestess

The principles of Maat were where the ten commandments came from and they come from the Egyptian path.

Really? Do you have a source for this?

Underworld Priestess

The consequences of not following these would come at my trial in the afterlife.

Where your heart is weighed against the feather of Maat?

Underworld Priestess

But I try to hold myself to an ideal high standard but I do fall short of it at times.

We all do. All we can do is our best.

By the power of the mind much is possible

Even if most social norms stem from Christianity, it doesn't mean that they are negative principles. Christianity was a late religion compared to paganism and the pagans lived by certain principles, some of which Christians adopted in order to convert pagans. There is quite a bit of argument over what came first the principles of Maat or the 10 Commandments, but I buy the theory that Maat came first. Yes, the trial in the afterlife is the weighing of the heart against the feather of Maat.

"The 42 Principles of Ma'at, the Goddess who personified the ideals of Truth and Righteousness, were known to all the ancient Egyptians. They have been rephrased here in Biblical Commandment form to make them more intelligible and familiar to moderns. In the original form they were preceded with "I have not" as in "I have not stolen." The Egyptians believed that when they died, their souls would be judged by these principles. Moses and the Israelites, who were originally Egyptians, would have been familiar with these principles, but after wandering for forty years they seem to have only remembered 8 of them (those highlighted in orange). Moses added three new non-secular commandments; the one about not honoring the other gods, the honoring of their parents, and the one that included their neighbor's wives and slaves as coveted chattel. The remarkable thing about the principles of Ma'at is not only how much more advanced they are in comparison with the Hebrew Commandments, but how most of them are strikingly relevant to this day".

1. I have not committed sin
2. I have not committed robbery with violence
3. I have not stolen
4. I have not slain men and women
5. I have not stolen food
6. I have not swindled offerings
7. I have not stolen from God
8. I have not told lies
9. I have not carried away food
10. I have not cursed
11. I have not closed my ears to truth
12. I have not committed adultery
13. I have not made anyone cry
14. I have not felt sorrow without reason
15. I have not assaulted anyone
16. I am not deceitful
17. I have not stolen anyone's land
18. I have not been an eavesdropper
19. I have not falsely accused anyone
20. I have not been angry without reason
21. I have not seduced anyone's wife
22. I have not polluted myself
23. I have not terrorized anyone
24. I have not disobeyed the law
25. I have not been excessively angry
26. I have not cursed God
27. I have not behaved with violence
28. I have not caused disruption of peace
29. I have not acted hastily or without thought
30. I have not overstepped my boundaries of concern
31. I have not exaggerated my words when speaking
32. I have not worked evil
33. I have not used evil thoughts, words or deeds
34. I have not polluted the water
35. I have not spoken angrily or arrogantly
36. I have not cursed anyone in thought, word or deed
37. I have not placed myself on a pedestal
38. I have not stolen that which belongs to God
39. I have not stolen from or disrespected the deceased
40. I have not taken food from a child
41. I have not acted with insolence
42. I have not destroyed property belonging to God.

Sources:
http://www.nubeing.com/unblind2/42.htm

http://www.essaysbyekowa.com/Maat and the 10 commandments.htm

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=386577

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat#42_Negative_Confessions_.28Papyrus_of_Ani.29

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:15 pm

I'm not sure how I would describe my ethical standards. They're pretty strict and applicable to nearly all aspects of my normal life. They don't really change. They've always been as they are now.
They came from my experiences growing up. I learnt a lot about acceptance and expectations and that's where my ethical code comes from.
The consequences of not doing as my ethical code requires is that I have to see myself as a bad person. That is something I don't want.

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phantomkitsune

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Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 7:48 pm

Loona, I'd be interested in your stance, too.

And I find it interesting that most of us follow deontological codes as opposed to the consequentialism of the Wiccan Rede.

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:28 am

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

phantomkitsune

Wiki

Thanks for the link. I'll read it this afternoon.

phantomkitsune

Also it should be noted, since some of my statements aren't observably in line with ethical egoism, that I have come to the conclusion that it is in my best interest to live amongst people who generally behave as utilitarians; many people working for the good of the whole will benefit me, since I am part of the whole.

I can understand that. We are part of the whole. We are all connected through subtle strands. What happens on one side of the globe will in some way have an effect on the other side.

phantomkitsune

Yes. I help people I care about because it makes me happy to see them happy. I help other people when it has a benefit for me.

What sort of benefit do you mean?

phantomkitsune

Mostly the ones about people you have to show respect to. They're minor, yes, but I really despise them in some situations. I'm a competent person, an know my field reasonably well. Having hard-earned knowledge dismissed because I am a few decades younger than some of my peers, and being expected and pressured to show respect to people who have no idea what they are talking about but are "respected" (old, retired, and competent at their old profession, even if it has nothing to do with my field) bothers me.

That would bother me as well. Though I think there are degrees of respect. For example I think you can respect some one for what they did in the past (even if it has nothing to do with your field) while not nessicarilly liking the person. I also feel that on the other side they should respect you for your hard work. You might not be as experienced as some one else, but you worked hard and if you have a question on something I'm sure you ask. Respect is a two way street (and a lot of people forget that).

phantomkitsune

Oh, I doubt we ever will rise above violence. I just like to encourage it not being random.

Agreed. Though I hate to admit there are times where really an act of violence (not malice) is the only way to stop a situation. I make a distinction between simple violence and acts of aggression

phantomkitsune

Elements of Moral Philosophy by James Rachels, The Republic by Plato, and a bunch of essays, mostly by Rachels and Immanuel Kant. Really interesting reading, if you're in a mindset to enjoy it. I read The Republic in school the first time, and didn't enjoy it the way I did rereading it later, but I understood it a lot more because I had people to discuss and dissect it with.

Cool. You could start a discussion about those books in the library forum wink

By the power of the mind much is possible

Loona Wynd
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:38 am

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

Underworld Priestess

Even if most social norms stem from Christianity, it doesn't mean that they are negative principles.

I didn't say that it was. It was more a statement of fact than anything. I have no problems with Christian Morals or ethics. I have a problem with people who claim they are Christian and ignore them.

Underworld Priestess

Christianity was a late religion compared to paganism and the pagans lived by certain principles, some of which Christians adopted in order to convert pagans.

I am aware of this.

Underworld Priestess

There is quite a bit of argument over what came first the principles of Maat or the 10 Commandments, but I buy the theory that Maat came first.

Whose to say they didn't come out around the same time? Keep in mind that the Hebrews traveled quite a bit and for many years before they came to Egypt.

Underworld Priestess

Yes, the trial in the afterlife is the weighing of the heart against the feather of Maat.

Cool. So I did remember something I learned back in Nov when i was doing my research for my project and presentation regarding Egyptian religion and beliefs.

Underworld Priestess

"The 42 Principles of Ma'at, the Goddess who personified the ideals of Truth and Righteousness, were known to all the ancient Egyptians. They have been rephrased here in Biblical Commandment form to make them more intelligible and familiar to moderns. In the original form they were preceded with "I have not" as in "I have not stolen." The Egyptians believed that when they died, their souls would be judged by these principles. Moses and the Israelites, who were originally Egyptians, would have been familiar with these principles, but after wandering for forty years they seem to have only remembered 8 of them (those highlighted in orange). Moses added three new non-secular commandments; the one about not honoring the other gods, the honoring of their parents, and the one that included their neighbor's wives and slaves as coveted chattel. The remarkable thing about the principles of Ma'at is not only how much more advanced they are in comparison with the Hebrew Commandments, but how most of them are strikingly relevant to this day".

I have not read these before so I may have some questions.

I have read them and I need to study them more. Do you find that there are any that are harder to follow than others?

By the power of the mind much is possible

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:42 am

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

doistu

I'm not sure how I would describe my ethical standards. They're pretty strict and applicable to nearly all aspects of my normal life. They don't really change. They've always been as they are now.

I see. How strict are they?

doistu

They came from my experiences growing up. I learned a lot about acceptance and expectations and that's where my ethical code comes from.

Were there any religious teachings or philosophical stances that impacted or effected the way you thought of your ethics?

doistu

The consequences of not doing as my ethical code requires is that I have to see myself as a bad person. That is something I don't want.

What do you define as a bad person?

By the power of the mind much is possible

Loona Wynd
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:48 am

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

phantomkitsune

Loona, I'd be interested in your stance, too.

I am working on a write up of my ethical code at the moment and will post it completly when its done.

The best way I can describe it right now is a combination of the NNV (Nine Nobel Virtues) and a bit of my interpretation of the Rede.

phantomkitsune

And I find it interesting that most of us follow deontological codes as opposed to the consequentialism of the Wiccan Rede.

Well the rede is advice simple as that. I think it's good advice but I think that it is incomplete as an ethical code.

For example (using a situation in high school): If some one has repeatedly harassed my friend any no one has done anything (meaning that they have spoken to teachers, principles and the like) I will step in and do what I can with out magic.

If that doesn't work I would then come up with a quick hex to use on them. I'd cast it understanding that I was going to be living with the repercussions of what I did. The rede if taken as it is written would not allow such an activity, hence why I see it as needing more for an ethical code.

By the power of the mind much is possible

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:17 am

Loona Wynd

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

If that doesn't work I would then come up with a quick hex to use on them. I'd cast it understanding that I was going to be living with the repercussions of what I did. The rede if taken as it is written would not allow such an activity, hence why I see it as needing more for an ethical code.

By the power of the mind much is possible

I feel I am confused. Could you explain how the Rede prohibits that activity?

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phantomkitsune

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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:46 am

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Loona Wynd

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

If that doesn't work I would then come up with a quick hex to use on them. I'd cast it understanding that I was going to be living with the repercussions of what I did. The rede if taken as it is written would not allow such an activity, hence why I see it as needing more for an ethical code.

By the power of the mind much is possible

I feel I am confused. Could you explain how the Rede prohibits that activity?

. . . the whole "An it harm none" bit?

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