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 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:15 pm
Leviticus and Deuteronomy do not apply if you are a Christian.That's right. If you are a Christian you don't need to be following the laws of Leviticus or Deuteronomy. It's pointless for a number of reasons. The first reason being that most Christians are Gentiles, not Jews. The Laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy were written specifically for the children of Israel (i.e. Jew). Evidence concerning this. Deuteronomy 1 1 These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan—that is, in the Arabah—opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. 2 (It takes eleven days to go from Horeb to Kadesh Barnea by the Mount Seir road.) 3 In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses proclaimed to the Israelites all that the LORD had commanded him concerning them. 4 This was after he had defeated Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon, and at Edrei had defeated Og king of Bashan, who reigned in Ashtaroth. Concerning Leviticus it's painfully clear that the people being addressed are the Israelites, not the Gentiles. Leviticus 1 1 The LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the Tent of Meeting. He said, 2 " Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When any of you brings an offering to the LORD, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock. Leviticus 4 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 " Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands- Leviticus 7 22 The LORD said to Moses, 23 " Say to the Israelites: 'Do not eat any of the fat of cattle, sheep or goats. . . . 28 The LORD said to Moses, 29 " Say to the Israelites: 'Anyone who brings a fellowship offering to the LORD is to bring part of it as his sacrifice to the LORD. Leviticus 11 1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 " Say to the Israelites: 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: Leviticus 12 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 " Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. Leviticus 15 1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 " Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When any man has a bodily discharge, the discharge is unclean. Leviticus 17 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: 'This is what the LORD has commanded: Leviticus 18 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 " Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. Leviticus 19 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 " Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy. Leviticus 20 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 " Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him. Leviticus 21 24 So Moses told this to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites. There's many many more but I think I got the point across. So what you may be asking are not Christians the "new" Israelites and are not Gentiles required to follow all those rules and regulations. No and we have Peter and Paul to thank for that. I must give credit to Nines19 for reminding me of this passage. Acts 15: 5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." 6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." The Laws of Deuteronomy and Leviticus are the yokes Christians are not required to bear. Colossians 2 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.So all you Christians that require other Christians and non-Christians to follow the Laws of Moses are essentially pissing on Christ's sacrifice to you. So why does specifically Leviticus not apply? Well Christ is the new High Priest for Christians according to Hebrews 7 but there's a verse in there that makes it painfully clear that the Laws for the Israelites do not apply to the Christians. Hebrews 7 18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. That's right the Law is weak and useless and this is not Paul's general ramblings here, since Paul was asked not to preach to the Hebrews if we remember our Bible history (Galatians 2:9). Finally it is detrimental to follow the Laws of Moses according to Paul. 2 Corinthians 3 2Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. That's right following the Laws of Moses and requiring others to follow the Laws of Moses is a stumbling block for the salvation of yourself and others. But wait didn't Jesus say: Quote: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB) "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB) We have to take these in context. He was talking specifically to other Hebrews in these passages and we also have to consider what Law and Prophets he was talking about. The Law and Prophets he sums up in Matthew 7:12. He also goes on to say in Matthew 22:36-40 Matthew 22 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." So in closing, if you think following the Laws of Moses will strengthen your relationship with your God, more power to you, but to require other Christians to follow it or claim that someone is not Christian because they don't follow the Laws of Moses is not supported by Scripture.
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Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:01 pm
Well, Jesus did build on a few of them, so I'd say they're not totally useless to Christians.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:02 pm
Stop Dont Believin Well, Jesus did build on a few of them, so I'd say they're not totally useless to Christians. Most of them are useless and many blindly think that all of them are useful and will bring salvation sad
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:10 pm
In all instances where Paul, Peter and James talk of works or works of the law, the Catholic Church believes that this is what is being referred to. That is why we believe that works along with faith are needed to keep on track for getting to Heaven, even if we need to take a detour through Purgatory.
Thanks for this!
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:54 pm
Hermonie Urameshi In all instances where Paul, Peter and James talk of works or works of the law, the Catholic Church believes that this is what is being referred to. That is why we believe that works along with faith are needed to keep on track for getting to Heaven, even if we need to take a detour through Purgatory.
Thanks for this! Your welcome. I'm glad you liked it and found it helpful. I didn't know I was taking a Catholic stance here XD. I was kinda going off my own study and gnosis here.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:08 pm
I've noticed most Protestants take the same stance, at least in parts of it. (That the old laws no longer apply.) I know a family who still follows the dietary laws, which doesn't make sense to me.
On the other point though, about what Peter, Paul and James wrote, what do you believe? That works are necessary along with faith, or no? Or perhaps we should make a new topic on this, it seems too different from the original.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:18 pm
Hermonie Urameshi I've noticed most Protestants take the same stance, at least in parts of it. (That the old laws no longer apply.) I know a family who still follows the dietary laws, which doesn't make sense to me.
On the other point though, about what Peter, Paul and James wrote, what do you believe? That works are necessary along with faith, or no? Or perhaps we should make a new topic on this, it seems too different from the original. I believe that Peter and James saw the Mosaic Laws as absolutely necessary. Paul saw the Law as potentially useful but in most cases a hindrance. This caused a rift in the Christian community for the longest time and repairs began by the forgeries of 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus and the creation of the mythic history recounted in Luke-Acts. If this hadn't been done, then Marcionism probably would be the standard form of Christianity today, and the Mysteries that the other sects contributed to the Christianity we have today would have been completely lost.
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:19 pm
If by "the law of Moses" you mean the sacrificial laws that deal with atonement (wiping away sins), making animal sacrifices to maintain communion and peace with our heavenly father and give him thanks, then yes those have been fulfilled. We're saved by faith, trusting in what the Messiah promised and how he tells us to live.
Also, I think there's some confusion out there over the ten commandments: they aren't kept to earn salvation, but to dwell peacefully with other human beings and to avoid disrespecting YHWH. That seems kind of obvious, no? The Messiah, by his example, showed us how they were truly kept. He told us to follow his example. If we follow his example, we stop all sinful behavior. He also flat-out told us to stop sinning (John 5:14). Why would he tell us to do that if (a) it weren't possible or if (b) it didn't matter how we lived?
Revelation 14:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
So basically, we are his saints (his holy people), only if we believe/trust the Messiah's work here on Earth and obey his teachings by putting them into practice.
His teachings can be summed up in a sentence: you all must refrain from causing your fellow human beings misery (which he summed up by saying LOVE each other). You avoid causing misery by not breaking families up through adultery; you avoid causing misery when you don't mess up other people's financial situations by stealing; you avoid causing misery when you don't kill innocent people for no reason [self-explanatory]; you avoid causing misery by not sending innocent people to jail, and you avoid making yourself miserable by not coveting the possessions of other people, instead being satisfied with what you have. He even reiterates these commandments in the new covenant when he's speaking to the rich man:
Matthew 19:16-19
New International Version (NIV)
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[a] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[b.]”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 19:19 Exodus 20:12-16; Deut. 5:16-20
b. Matthew 19:19 Lev. 19:18
By reading the scriptures in their entirety, I've come to find that not much has changed between the two covenants aside from the sacrificial law; otherwise, this wouldn't be true:
Malachi 3:6
New International Version (NIV)
6 “I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:18 pm
"Stop sinning" in this regard is to "stop missing the mark". In context it's stop using the law to persecute others and examine yourself. In regards to the ten commandments, really now? Let's look at the Sabbath Laws Exodus 31 12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13"Say to the Israelites, `You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. 14"`Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.15For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.'" Hmmm. If I recall this is include in the Ten Commandments, at least expanded upon. Let's see what Jesus has to say concerning the Sabbath. Mark 2 23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?” 25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” Hmmm.. Seems like Jesus didn't care too much for the specifics of the Ten Commandments. Probably because they are summed up by the Greatest Commandment. In regards to the Sabbath, it's summed up under "Love God" wink . I think it should be pointed out that both Matthew and Revelations were written by sects that were opposed to Paul's teachings. Hell the Whore of Babylon in Revelations was Paul's Church and the Churches that sided with the Gentiles. In regards to Malachi 3:6, this seems to counter that. Jeremiah 18 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. Sounds like YHVH changes his mind here. Maybe you can provide some better perspective on this.
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:43 pm
Jesus worked on the Sabbath as a child and he got a telling off. 3nodding
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:33 am
rmcdra "Stop sinning" in this regard is to "stop missing the mark". In context it's stop using the law to persecute others and examine yourself. I agree with your definition of sin and the concept that we're not allowed to condemn other people—that's a role solely reserved for his Great White Throne judgment. The whole sacrificial/levitical system was about being found guilty (condemnation) and having to atone for it with an animal sacrifice or your life; under the new covenant with the Messiah: you miss the mark, you repent of the action (in heart, mind, and body), and you're blameless, you don't have to sacrifice an animal or pay with your life (quite the opposite, now you're given life as a prize) b/c he's atoning for us in heaven as our high priest; ergo, condemnation is gone. I'm including Exodus 31:14-15 along with that; Condemnation laws are no longer valid, because the sacrificial system that accompanied it was fulfilled. However, I think you're missing a very important point if you think we're not suppose to use scripture to examine ourselves [unless you meant "...to persecute others and INSTEAD examine yourself"]. That's why the Messiah's teachings are likened to a mirror. James 1:23-25New International Version (NIV)23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.You're expected to reexamine yourself. Also, when I referred to "The Ten Commandments" this is what I had in mind: Exodus 20:1-17New International Version The Ten Commandments 1 And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”Footnotes:a. Exodus 20:3 Or besides ...there's no condemnation spoken of here. Just the principles of how to avoid disrespecting YHWH and how to live peacefully/orderly among people. This is what Yeshua quoted when he spoke to the rich man and this is what I meant by "avoid causing misery" which Yeshua summed up by telling us to love God (first four) and love each other (last six). I'm very much aware of Mark 2:23-28, I do not consider that stealing, just like Yeshua did not consider it stealing. It is actually helping to sustain life which is what all of his commandments aimed to do (keep humans happy, peaceful, in order, away from chaos/unnecessary drama, keep his creations healthy, etc...). Moses' law of condemnation/sacrifice did not do any of that; it just said "you're guilty and here's the price you now have to pay." (i.e. you found a lost object and didn't return it? well, now go return it, pay the full price + 1/5th of its value + sacrifice a ram to YHWH). Actually it would be better to just drop the "moses" because everything came from YHWH; it would be more accurate to say "YHWH's law of condemnation was fulfilled", that is why animal sacrifices are no longer valid. But his principles on how to live peacefully still remain: Exodus 40:16New International Version (NIV)16 Moses did everything just as the LORD commanded him.You'll find this repeated all throughout the building of the tabernacle, the consecrations, ordinations, sacrificial rituals. Matthew 5:17-20King James Version (KJV) 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Sacrificial law fulfilled; Peaceful law and righteousness remains. Righteousness is a good thing. Scripture supports this by reiterating the following throughout the bible: Galatians 5:19-21New International Version (NIV) 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.The way we live matters. Commiting adultery falls under "Sexual Immorality, impurity and debauchery [...] orgies"'; If you commit idolatry and witchcraft, you're breaking the first two out of ten as well as committing adultery in a spiritual sense for your unfaithfulness to YHWH; Hatred? Rage? those are murderous qualities. Jealousy? that is the fruit of coveting. Dissension? the complete opposite of peace. The Ten Commandments was the first attempt to summarize how he wanted us to live. He tried again by telling us to "LOVE". But people are being Pharisaical about it in both the old and new testaments, in some instances even trying to re-define "love" altogether differently from what scripture tells them: love is obedience. The obedient will have the characteristics described in 1 Cor 13:4-7 as well. Romans 13:9-10New International Version (NIV)Love Fulfills the Law 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b'] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.Footnotes:a. Romans 13:9 Exodus 20:13-15,17; Deut. 5:17-19,21 b. Romans 13:9 Lev. 19:18 Ergo, the principles of the ten commandments = LOVE 1 John 2:1-6New International Version (NIV) 1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.Footnotes:a. 1 John 2:5 Or word, God’s love1 John 5:2-3New International Version (NIV)2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
Love for god (first four); Love for his children, his creations (last six). 2 John 1:5-6New International Version (NIV)5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.Moving on, Malachi 3:6 which I quoted is speaking of YHWH's character which does not change: he's merciful, he's holy, he's very patient, among other things. Jeremiah 18:7-10 actually supports Malachi 3:6; he's exhibiting one of his many attributes: he's being merciful with the people; if they repent he will spare them. If we repent, he spares us. That hasn't changed. If you're a thief, stop stealing. If you're an adulterer, become loyal. If you ask him to make you honest and help you become loyal, do you think he's not going to make you go through certain experiences or change your circumstances in life in order to develop honesty and loyalty in you? Of course he will. But you have to decide that you want to change. That's repentance: acknowledging your "wrongs" and not wanting them anymore. Also, something else I saw brought up in here (people who look to the dietary laws as a guideline). Let's apply some common sense: pigs weren't magically transformed into a healthy source of food after the messiah sacrificed himself. They were just as much full of disease and artery-clogging cholesterol back then as they are now. Shrimp is also full of cholesterol and if they are following the dietary laws as detailed in the old testament, they wouldn't be eating shrimp either. You won't be condemned for eating the pig or the shrimp, but it doesn't mean it's good for you. 1 Corinthians 10:23New International Version (NIV)The Believer’s Freedom 23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive.
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:52 am
real eyes realize I agree with your definition of sin and the concept that we're not allowed to condemn other people—that's a role solely reserved for his Great White Throne judgment. The whole sacrificial/levitical system was about being found guilty (condemnation) and having to atone for it with an animal sacrifice or your life; under the new covenant with the Messiah: you miss the mark, you repent of the action (in heart, mind, and body), and you're blameless, you don't have to sacrifice an animal or pay with your life (quite the opposite, now you're given life as a prize) b/c he's atoning for us in heaven as our high priest; ergo, condemnation is gone. Partially right. This is the problem I have with the blood sacrifice theology. It completely under minds the point of his teachings. I mean seriously why bother teaching anything if his whole point was to die? The point isn't that he died. The point is that he lived. By both Hebrew and Gentile standards not only did he deserve to die but he should have remained dead. The miracle was that he didn't die. His teachings and resurrection demonstrated that the Laws of Moses were abolished. Quote: I'm including Exodus 31:14-15 along with that; Condemnation laws are no longer valid, because the sacrificial system that accompanied it was fulfilled. The whole ten commandments are summed up by the New Covenant. Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself. Quote: However, I think you're missing a very important point if you think we're not suppose to use scripture to examine ourselves [unless you meant "stop persecuting and INSTEAD examine yourself"]. That's why the Messiah's teachings are likened to a mirror. I think we should use scripture of course. Most people use the Old Testament incorrectly though taking much of it out of context. Paul knew this, that's why he called the Laws of Moses a "a stumbling block" and a "veil over one's face" (Gal5:11 & 2 Cor 3:15 [Do note that circumcision at this time meant submission to the Laws of Moses]). Quote: James 1:23-25New International Version (NIV)23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.You're expected to reexamine yourself. Of course. No where did I say that you weren't. I don't get where you are saying that I'm not. The perfect Law though is "Love God, Love your Neighbor as yourself". I mean both Paul and James at least agree on that. James 2 8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. Galatians 5 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. Quote: Also, when I referred to "The Ten Commandments" this is what I had in mind: Exodus 20:1-17New International Version The Ten Commandments 1 And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”Footnotes:a. Exodus 20:3 Or besides ...there's no condemnation spoken of here. Just the principles of how to avoid disrespecting YHWH and how to live peacefully/orderly among people. This is what Yeshua quoted when he spoke to the rich man and this is what I meant by "avoid causing misery" which Yeshua summed up by telling us to love God (first four) and love each other (last six). Yes they are summed up by the Greatest Commandment, so why do we need to focus on these "specifics" if they are already summed up. Seems kinda extraneous if you ask me. Quote: I'm very much aware of Mark 2:23-28, I do not consider that stealing, just like Yeshua did not consider it stealing. It is actually helping to sustain life which is what all of his commandments aimed to do (keep humans happy, peaceful, in order, away from chaos/unnecessary drama, keep his creations healthy, etc...). Moses' law of condemnation did not do any of that; it just said "you're guilty and here's the price you now have to pay." Actually it would be better to just drop the "moses" because everything came from YHWH; it would be more accurate to say "YHWH's law of condemnation was fulfilled", that is why animal sacrifices are no longer valid. But his principles on how to live peacefully still remain: Hmm... I think you are forgetting about how brutal the Laws of Moses are. Numbers 15 32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD They are the Laws of Moses because Moses extrapolated from the Perfect Law. He was allegedly the voice piece of God at this time, so yes he made the Laws of Moses. Quote: Matthew 5:17-20King James Version (KJV) 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Sacrificial law fulfilled; Peaceful law and righteousness remains. Yes this was written by Jewish Christians who didn't like non-Torah observing Gentile Christians. Of course they are going to have a passage like that thrown in. Anyway, what's the problem with being the least in Heaven, you're still in Heaven wink . Also you seem to be implying that God plays favorite razz . Quote: Scripture supports this by reiterating the following throughout the bible: Galatians 5:19-21New International Version (NIV) 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.Well yeah. Not disagreeing with you on this. If you don't examine yourself and receive the resurrection in this life you won't find it in the next. That's Christianity 101. Quote: The way we live matters. Commiting adultery falls under "Sexual Immorality, impurity and debauchery [...] orgies"'; If you commit idolatry and witchcraft, you're breaking the first two out of ten; Hatred? Rage? those are murderous qualities. Jealousy? that is the fruit of coveting. Dissension? the complete opposite of peace. The Ten Commandments was the first attempt to summarize how he wanted us to live. He tried again by telling us to "LOVE". But people are being Pharisaical about it in both the old and new testaments, in some instances even trying to re-define "love" altogether differently from what scripture tells them: love is obedience. Their righteousness was a good thing; their literalism was not. I never said that the way you live didn't matter. Of course it matters. That would be stupid to think that it didn't. I disagree with you on the purpose of the Ten Commandments. If that was his purpose in the first place I mean couldn't he have just told Moses and not need to send his son to be unjustly killed. I feel like you are just ranting now :/ Quote: Romans 13:9-10New International Version (NIV)Love Fulfills the Law 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b'] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.Footnotes:a. Romans 13:9 Exodus 20:13-15,17; Deut. 5:17-19,21 b. Romans 13:9 Lev. 19:18 Ergo, the ten commandments = LOVE He's talking to Torah observing Gentile. Yes it fulfills the Law. So much so that the Law is no longer necessary. Romans 10 4But Christ makes the Law no longer necessary for those who become acceptable to God by faith. Quote: 1 John 5:2-3New International Version (NIV)2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
2 John 1:5-6New International Version (NIV)5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. And what is the Law now? Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself. They we go. I like following the KISS acronym. It does Keep It Simple. Quote: Next, Malachi 3:6 which I quoted, is speaking of YHWH's character which does not change: he's merciful, he's holy, he's very patient, among other things. Jeremiah 18:7-10 actually supports Malachi 3:6; he's exhibiting one of his many attributes: he's being merciful with the people; if they repent he will spare them. Really? But you were just using this quote earlier to justify that God doesn't change his mind on things, you know like his Levitical Laws, I mean he told Moses directly to kill a man who worked on the Sabbath. You are apologeticing now. I can accept that the Bible is an anthology of Christian and Hebrew literature with different and even contracting view points. It makes things easier than having to construct all these apologetic arguments. Quote: Also, something else I saw brought up in here (people who look to the dietary laws as a guideline). Let's apply some common sense: pigs weren't magically transformed into a healthy source of food after the messiah sacrificed himself. They were just as much full of disease and artery-clogging cholesterol back then as they are now. Shrimp is also full of cholesterol and if they are following the dietary laws as detailed in the old testament, they wouldn't be eating shrimp either. They won't be condemned for eating the shrimp, but it doesn't mean it's good for you. Really? Health benefits of shrimp and Lean pork is comparable to poultryEdit: Also if you are focusing on trying to justify the codes in terms of health then you are missing the point. FYI wink Especially when there is evidence suggesting the opposite. Quote: 1 Corinthians 10:23New International Version (NIV)The Believer’s Freedom 23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive.
Well yeah that's generally well known wisdom right there. This only reinforces my point.
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:58 am
FYI: I edited my post to explain myself more completely. Sorry if my attempts to thoroughly do so sounds "ranty", that's not the intention. My whole point is that the ten commandments are not part of the sacrificial laws of condemnation; if you're loving people, then you are keeping them which we seem to agree on. & like I originally said, people are not keeping them for salvation (or at least shouldn't be), but as principles to live peacefully and not disrespect YHWH, to live as Yeshua did. I've only read the books in the bible and what I have written here is what I understand from all the books as a whole. I'm not really sure what Apologetics are; i've heard mention of the term but I have not researched them. I have been meaning to start the books deemed "Apocrypha" though. edit: Quote: Pork, on the other hand, has some of highest saturation of fats and cholesterol among meats. Moreover, pork is high in sodium, particularly variants that are cured. These two aspects can contribute to dietary imbalances that lead to health problems like obesity, diabetes and cardiovascular disease Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/411907-what-are-the-health-benefits-of-pork-vs-poultry/#ixzz1frqz8kcv That is my point. I wasn't talking about lean pork. I'm talking about the animal. It would make sense why people want to avoid pork meat altogether.
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:33 am
real eyes realize Sorry if my attempts to thoroughly do so sounds "ranty", that's not the intention. It's okay. Just trying to keep us on topic. Quote: My whole point is that the ten commandments are not part of the sacrificial laws of condemnation; if you're loving people, then you are keeping them which we seem to agree on. Well of course you are keeping them since you know loving God and loving your neighbor is the foundation. If the 10 commandments are based on the perfect law, then if you follow the perfect law you by default are already obeying the 10 Commandments since you know that is where they are derived from. Since the sacrificial system was based on the 10 Commandments, then yes the 10 Commandments are related to the sacrificial system. Quote: & like I originally said, people are not keeping them for salvation (or at least shouldn't be), but as principles to live peacefully and not disrespect YHWH, to live as Yeshua did. You'd be surprised. Quote: I've only read the books in the bible and what I have written here is what I understand from all the books as a whole. I'm not really sure what Apologetics are; i've heard mention of the term but I have not researched them. . It's basically defense against religious criticism. The problem with most apologetics is that they can be down right dishonest and will often deny history or facts in order to support their religious stance. Common examples are history of the Bible, Creationism, and Biblical inerrancy. Quote: I have been meaning to start the books deemed "Apocrypha" though. Cool. If you need help understanding Nag Hammadi Library stuff, just send me a PM.
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:57 am
You could have just pointed towards Jeremiah 31:31-34. razz
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