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 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:08 am
Alright, I know it's been said before, but I think it bears discussion...
*Note that my personal opinion is involved, so ... yeah, not the most technical topic*
Are wrestling fans, particularly the IWC, started to expect too much from the big companies?
Case in point, I've been reading the Smackdown/Raw results posted here recently, and it seems like some just dislike everything flat out. When I watch for myself though, I find myself enjoying what's going on.
Another example is Randy Orton. I remember a few months back around Royal Rumble, when people were praising his slow Tweener/Face turn. Now people are just saying otherwise. I suppose the subtle changes made could be enough to sway some, but some of it seems like a case of "It's not exactly what I wanted, so it's bad"
I'll bring up Cody Rhodes here. His "Dashing" gimmick is something I have not seen in recent years. I find it entertaining. But on this site, I haven't seen much in favor of it.
Have we, as fans, become so jaded that nothing can keep our interest if it's not what we want? I'm not saying we need to be marks, but they do have something we lack it seems... Enthusiasm and a fascination with what goes on.
That's just my take on it though.
Opinions?
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:56 am
I'm going to disagree with you on this...somewhat.
First off, while I see what you're getting at, you can't really distance yourself from the IWC because you, like all of us, are members of that group. It's an umbrella term used to refer to people who discuss wrestling online. A lot of times, the phrase is misused; people throw it around like they also aren't on the internet wrestling forum. And a lot of times, it's hurled as an insult towards people who, though voicing their disdain for what WWE is becoming, are still voicing their opinion of the product...and the insinuation is that "oh, well they don't have original thoughts cause they're part of the IWC". We are all members of the IWC.
As for the results, there's a reason why I make two posts. The first post is the general run down of the show with no bias towards the show...the second post is my opinion of the show. I used to post them together, but decided to split them up because a) it was much easier to write (since I could focus on reviewing later) and b) because I didn't want my bias to get in the way of other people's opinions. If you liked the shows, cool. More power to you, man. That's your opinion of the show and you are completely allowed to voice your opinion (we might rib each other occasionally, but it's all in good fun).
As for the Orton-bashing, there's a reason for that, and I'll get to it in a moment. When I talk badly about someone, say Otunga (I've bad mouthed him a lot) or Rob Terry, I'm not dissing them on a personal level. I'm sure both guys are great guys...hell, most wrestlers are pretty cool. Orton on the other hand is a documented a*****e. Just like I have no respect for Vince Russo or Hogan, I have no respect for Orton. There are numerous instances of him just being a complete t**t, that I'm fed up with it. And yeah, at one time, I did like Orton. His hardcore match with Foley and first title match against Benoit were phenomenal. But things change. He's gone from being energetic...to taking on this "I'm trying very hard to be methodical" style that sucks the energy out of matches. He refuses to push anybody (that isn't Cena or HHH), apparently forgetting the service Mick and Chris did for him. What I'm getting at is, it's not that I don't like him...it's that I have very specific reasons for why I don't like him that are more about him as a person.
You're right, I don't like the Cody Rhoades gimmick...just because I don't though, doesn't mean I attack anyone with a dissenting view. Personally, I'd like to see him and Husky Harris become a Blackjacks style tag team. I think it'd be more effective for him since he's not very good at pushing himself (which is probably Dusty's fault. He ruined Dustin's career by pushing him too hard too fast, and I think he's doing the same to Cody...note that Dustin didn't actually come into his own until he left his dad's shadow and became Goldust...Cody needs to grow up by himself too, but a tag team can help him focus a bit and grow piece by piece).
As for the high expectations, believe me...it's not just wrestling. Society in general is very demanding. I've read anime request forums on sites where people are demanding (not requesting...demanding) that they upload anime that the site cannot possibly do (i.e. they want a series dubbed when it hasn't even been licensed, they want episodes that aren't even out yet...they want dubbed shows that aren't even subbed yet, etc.). It's the world we live in. Technology has spoiled us and there's plenty of examples to site. But point blank...neither company is really delivering at this point. Sure, everyone has all these fond memories of the late 90s and early 2000s, even though things weren't as great as we think they were...but the WWE has grown stale, and TNA is too spastic. And here's my examples of why they're bad:
WWE- Let's say someone markets a movie (in the example, the movie is the PPV). The desired effect is that you buy and watch this movie...however, what you get is the same movie over and over again... That's the WWE's problem. Their writing has grown so stale and predictable. The one time in the past couple years that it wasn't (Nexus angle) it was great. I actually enjoy this angle (and would even more if they booked it right). The problem is with the writers...they've only written for TV shows...they don't know how to write a wrestling storyline. Hence, why every angle is very formulaic and predictable...mainly because we've already seen it before about ten times. You wouldn't pay to see the same movie over and over again...even if the movies great, you stop watching it eventually.
TNA- Using the movie market example, TNA's movie is not only not the same...it's every genre rolled into one without anything connecting throughline. One second, you're watching a slasher, the next, it's a rom-com, then it's a detective thriller....and this is the first three seconds of the film...There is no direction in TNA. And eventually, no one goes to see the movie cause no one wants to try to follow it.
While I do agree with you that there are those people out there who only hate WWE and/or TNA without any real reason...there are those who like them for no reason. And I assure you, those are not the people in this guild. The guys that post here a lot, yourself included, I know can defend themselves when asked why they liked/hated something. That's why this guild was formed: for smart wrestling debate without the childishness name calling. Even this, I think is a great topic...and it's done how I would expect in this guild: without the fingerpointing and name calling; just a topic that provides thought-provoking debate.
In short, I think if we feel we're not being entertained, we have the right to complain...but I assure you when something exciting happens, this place lights up.
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:14 am
See, I've viewed televised wrestling as if it were a grocery store. There are a variety of different items you can choose from, but generally you get what you want and it is usually the same stuff over and over again (sure there's variety, but for continuity's sake). Now imagine the same grocery store, but you are forced to get everything on the list that the guy working there hands you. That's what I get from the WWE right now.
Lets say you left that grocery store and went to the smaller convenient store down the road. They have more freedom with what they have...perhaps too much freedom. The item is constantly changing, without any kind of indication of when a particular product will be in. That's how I view TNA today.
Basically, either way, I'm disappointed, just like every other reality TV show (despite it being scripted, I still consider it "reality" in that for the most part, the tapings are usually live). If someone doesn't agree with me, that's fine; they can like it as much as they want to. I'm not going to sway anyone to my way of thinking, so I expect others to do the same.
In regard to Orton, the change to me seemed abrupt. It was a change in pace, but he went from methodical heel to wishy-washy tweener with some methodical presence. Basically, he built a decent enough heel character and worked on it for so long that I believe he forgot what it meant to have a change in standing with the fans. Also the fact that Orton has been dubbed the Push Killer for the sake of his own career.
The dashing gimmick...honestly, I could do without it. There are so many other ways to build up Cody, which brings me to my biggest point: more and more of the newer superstars seem forced into a cookie-cutter character. Now, I'm not sure if that's Creative being unoriginal or for the sake of kids, but you need an interesting character here and there to break that mold. Nexus only does that to a point.
Speaking of Nexus, the plot needs to end ASAP. After looking at the roster, RAW really needs the faction to disband for the sake of creating fresh plots. Yes, it is interesting; yes, its a typical faction plot (something we rarely see), however considering their current roster, they need the faction to split.
I wouldn't go so far as say that we are jaded. Rather, I'd see it as just a different opinion. I base most of my analysis of a show on the in-ring ability in the match (whether or not they hit their marks correctly, how the match ends, etc.); in essence, anything that the superstar has control of is what I base my opinion on.
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:26 am
Alright, I knew I picked a good spot for this, haha. Anyways, I see your points. I was just picking the first examples that came to my head last night as I refused to sleep.
I realize that my wording could've been better as well.
Yes, this place usually has reasoning behind their actions. I should've clarified that I've seen a lot of places hate the WWE/TNA for things I don't get. Maybe it's because I wasn't a fan during the Attitude Era, or the Ruthless Aggression era, maybe I'm missing something by not seeing this, but whatever.
I will say this though, I think a little continuity would go a long way for appeasing the fans with good memories. It wasn't much, but Shaemus referencing his feud with Goldust on ECW is at least a nod to the past.
Thanks for your replies though.
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:16 am
It was, but Goldust is just jobbing now. Personally, I'd like to see another midcard title run out of him, but it won't happen.
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:20 am
Alright then, since we can all be Armchair GMs, what would you, personally, do to make Professional Wrestling interesting to you?
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:34 am
jama7301 Alright then, since we can all be Armchair GMs, what would you, personally, do to make Professional Wrestling interesting to you? Have Hulk Hogan and Vince Russo assassinated.
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:40 pm
I wonder how much of this has to do with the mindset of the people when they go into the show. If you go in expecting crap, aren't you more likely to come out with a bad opinion of the show?
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:51 pm
jama7301 I wonder how much of this has to do with the mindset of the people when they go into the show. If you go in expecting crap, aren't you more likely to come out with a bad opinion of the show? Well I expect the worst of TNA every week because I feel I can't be disappointed that way.
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:27 am
jama7301 Alright then, since we can all be Armchair GMs, what would you, personally, do to make Professional Wrestling interesting to you? Amputate creative in place of a prosthetic, aka, cull out the bad writers and replace them with new writers that have innovative ideas. Also, I would hire older wrestlers not to show them off, but as trainers and choreographers for matches. It ends up working better if the trainer has actually been involved in the industry for a while. After that, I would work on the titles and set up specific divisions, starting with the Diva's division. A good breakdown of the titles would be: -1 divas title -2 tag titles -2 cruiserweight titles -2 show titles -the IC and USC titles -WWE and WHC titles The last 4 would be a traveling title, or what I like to case "Prestige Titles". Still trying to work out the midcard portion, though...
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Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:00 pm
I just found this topic so forgive me if I jump around or combine at random.
Re: "Dashing" Cody - Not very original and poor choice of person. For this gimmick you need someone that even men take notice of for good looks. The grooming tips seem too much like Queer Eye for the Wrestling Fan and to be honest don't have the effect they should have because many men to date do groom. Manicures, facials, waxing, etc are done by straight and gay men in an effort to appeal to women and business interests. Hell, I moisturise my skin, use special soap, and condition my hair because I like to look good for my lady and while job hunting. Now if it was still common opinion that men are hairy, unshaved, and unkept this would work, but again, men take more pride in their appearence these days so the gimmick doesn't work like it should, in the 90's this would have worked.
Re: Orton - The change in his character is horrible. He has none of the energy he used to. Dean Malenko was methodical and cold but he brought energy to a match. Orton's matches now are basically how can he make himself look better than the other guy while trying to force hearing voices. He needs to spend less time on his tan and more time learning what happens to guys that like to play "my spot".
On the subject of not getting what I want: If wrestling did everything the way I want it, it would not be fun anymore. If the face always won it would be dull. What I want is to have curves thrown. I want to think one thing will happen and then have something different but still makes sense. I want unexpected counters. I want matches won by lucky pins instead of always ending due to a finisher. It doesn't have to be sex fueled shock TV, just throw in things I don't expect.
Opinions of wrestlers: I doubt any of us truly know the performers personally, we only know stage persona and whatever dirt that comes from scandals. I don't like any wrestler that is more about merchandise that entertaining and giving bare minimum in matches. I also don't like guys that stay the eternal underdog. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, if we all thought the same this would be a really dull world.
As for the changes:
WWE:
-Take the Divas off the air. People want hot bodies to look at there's a website full of pictures. Hell, I'd even have nude pics up for paying customers. If a woman was serious about actually putting on good matches I would push her as far as she wants to go.
-Reform the Tag Division. Edge, Christian, Matt, Jeff, Bubba, D-Von, and the APA gave us great tag matches. We need WWE teams that do what The Guns and Beer Money do in TNA.
-Cruiserweight Title revived. No matter how you argue it, watching two guys at less than 200lbs flying around doing spots is more fun than two muscleheads slamming each other.
-2 World titles. Raw world champion and Smackdown world champion. No heavyweight in the title. No WWE in the title.
TNA:
-Nothing but make it what it was before Hogan. It had it's problems before Hogan but it really went downhill after he came in. I'm not saying he is solely to blame, he just so happened to come in right as all these changes did so he gets labeled by association.
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Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:27 pm
Thanks, Slaje. I'm lacking more examples at the moment that generate some love/hate relationships. If someone thinks of one, feel free to weigh in.
I figure I should throw in my two cents for the moment.
I'm fine with a lot of the gimmicks right now, but I will agree that some surprise endings would be nice. A Superplex pin, or a sunset flip that actually works. Or hey, how about the inside cradle working on a non-distracted person?
I have only 2 problems with the current PG era in the WWE. The first is the blood policy. Ruins any momentum and entertainment. The second is that some of the promos feel really forced to fit the rating. Case in point: Cena and his Superman/Aquaman joke, or the "World of Warcraft" one from a few months back. Damn, Hell, these are words that you can use sparingly enough to get a point across without breaking the rating, i believe.
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Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:15 am
jama7301 Thanks, Slaje. I'm lacking more examples at the moment that generate some love/hate relationships. If someone thinks of one, feel free to weigh in. I figure I should throw in my two cents for the moment. I'm fine with a lot of the gimmicks right now, but I will agree that some surprise endings would be nice. A Superplex pin, or a sunset flip that actually works. Or hey, how about the inside cradle working on a non-distracted person? I have only 2 problems with the current PG era in the WWE. The first is the blood policy. Ruins any momentum and entertainment. The second is that some of the promos feel really forced to fit the rating. Case in point: Cena and his Superman/Aquaman joke, or the "World of Warcraft" one from a few months back. Damn, Hell, these are words that you can use sparingly enough to get a point across without breaking the rating, i believe. yeah, I mean Bret Hart told Mr. Mcmahon to get his a** out here so you know they can use some words, they just don't.
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Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:44 pm
Why does it seem that people on wrestling forums hate whoever's in the main event, but loved them when they were in the midcard/tag-team beforehand?
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:45 am
jama7301 Why does it seem that people on wrestling forums hate whoever's in the main event, but loved them when they were in the midcard/tag-team beforehand? I take it this has something to do with the continued disliking of Miz in the main event light?
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Reply
