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Just Add Otter

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:19 pm


I think we're going about the constitution all wrong. I look at the thing right now and see incredibly trivial matters being addressed: name, address, duration, etc. We need to work on the actual detailed organization of the party. Such as who makes up the board of directors, how they are appointed, how long their term is, what their specific powers are, etc.

I propose that rather than organizing the constitution as it is now, we arrange it to have one or many Articles regarding the various branches of government, how they interact, integrate, communicate, and exercize power over various functions. Then an article regarding the general purpose and powers of the Novos party as a whole, probably towards the beginning of the Constitution as a Preamble or an entire article if deemed necessary. Another article will deal with amendments, ratification, and processes for decision making. Another will answer the question of how new governments and territories and peoples may enter the Party. Another will place restrictions on the governing figures, how they may exercize power, when, for what reason, exceptions to certain rules, what rules may never be broken, etc.

Keep in mind that we are creating not only a political organization but a world power, a global government. And that certain needs must be met. Power must be divided beyond merely the Board of Directors. The board of directors cannot manage all the businesses of the Novos party.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:23 pm


It will be difficult to look so far into the future though to see what kinds of needs Novos administration will require once the plan reaches that level. Almost impossible actually, and if we were to try and set it up now it would proably require change before it would even coe into effect.

What if we were to include an Article about how at such and such point in time a special session is to be held among all administrative members to determine what said needs will be?

Fenris Claiborne
Crew


Myslec
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:23 am


Fenris Claiborne
It will be difficult to look so far into the future though to see what kinds of needs Novos administration will require once the plan reaches that level. Almost impossible actually, and if we were to try and set it up now it would probably require change before it would even coe into effect.
We might be able to gain insight into future needs be looking at current political parties, their struggles, and their constitution. I'm not sure what knowledge could be gained, but might help.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:40 pm


Sobek1337
I think we're going about the constitution all wrong. I look at the thing right now and see incredibly trivial matters being addressed: name, address, duration, etc. We need to work on the actual detailed organization of the party. Such as who makes up the board of directors, how they are appointed, how long their term is, what their specific powers are, etc.

I propose that rather than organizing the constitution as it is now, we arrange it to have one or many Articles regarding the various branches of government, how they interact, integrate, communicate, and exercize power over various functions. Then an article regarding the general purpose and powers of the Novos party as a whole, probably towards the beginning of the Constitution as a Preamble or an entire article if deemed necessary. Another article will deal with amendments, ratification, and processes for decision making. Another will answer the question of how new governments and territories and peoples may enter the Party. Another will place restrictions on the governing figures, how they may exercize power, when, for what reason, exceptions to certain rules, what rules may never be broken, etc.

Keep in mind that we are creating not only a political organization but a world power, a global government. And that certain needs must be met. Power must be divided beyond merely the Board of Directors. The board of directors cannot manage all the businesses of the Novos party.
The task you are suggesting is enormous and would probably take quite a long time to complete. I believe that a provisional document is necessary to guide our actions. The constitution should be a long-term project that gets the insights of many people, not just the ten who are currently active.

Aperium
Crew


Myslec
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:06 pm


Aperium
I believe that a provisional document is necessary to guide our actions. The constitution should be a long-term project that gets the insights of many people, not just the ten who are currently active.
Although it is interesting, I disagree with your idea of the pre-constitution document. It would probably slow us down, more than it would help. I believe that the ten who are currently active (and any others who become active) should make a 'good enough' document that can be perfected later when there are others to help.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:49 pm


Sobek1337
I think we're going about the constitution all wrong. I look at the thing right now and see incredibly trivial matters being addressed: name, address, duration, etc.
Agreed
Sobek1337

We need to work on the actual detailed organization of the party. Such as who makes up the board of directors, how they are appointed, how long their term is, what their specific powers are, etc.
I don't argee with this though. It seems that, at this point, most of these things wont help the party in any way and will actually hinder more immeadiate activities. As I have said (and enough people agree) we need a manifesto. We need to discuss policies and create formal possitions on them. Diverting efforts toward creating a complex document would slow this down. I also do not see why it would be a problem to make constitutional rulings on these subjects at a time when they are more likely to be usefull.



Sobek1337
Keep in mind that we are creating not only a political organization but a world power, a global government.
Actually we're not creating a world power yet. Right now we're trying to make a political party with unified causes.

Aperium
I believe that a provisional document is necessary to guide our actions. The constitution should be a long-term project that gets the insights of many people, not just the ten who are currently active.


It would not need to be a provisional document. If we are having a constitution then it should be obviously, and always, a work-in-progress. It should be open to addition, subtraction, and alteration as and when the party wishes. Just start now with an empty constitution and add articles when they are needed.

Ladyfriend
Crew


Aperium
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:25 pm


Ladyfriend

Aperium
I believe that a provisional document is necessary to guide our actions. The constitution should be a long-term project that gets the insights of many people, not just the ten who are currently active.


It would not need to be a provisional document. If we are having a constitution then it should be obviously, and always, a work-in-progress. It should be open to addition, subtraction, and alteration as and when the party wishes. Just start now with an empty constitution and add articles when they are needed.
I will agree to this for now, but it may be necessary to completely rewrite the constitution as we grow in number and influence.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:09 pm


Well that's a given isn't it? We'd be foolish not to expect at least some revisions, and like I said, it's still to early in the game for us to reasonably predict what will happen later.

So we've decided again that a manifesto is needed no?

Fenris Claiborne
Crew


Aperium
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:17 am


Fenris Claiborne
Well that's a given isn't it? We'd be foolish not to expect at least some revisions, and like I said, it's still to early in the game for us to reasonably predict what will happen later.

So we've decided again that a manifesto is needed no?
Yes, we still need the manifesto, but might it be good to first make rules/guidelines on how to come to decisions?

Myslec and I have discussed this and are not completely in agreement with one another. What we do agree on is that if we are going to have the deadlines on discussions, you need rules on how much time is allowed for discussion and how the end vote is decided.

For example:
There is a three week discussion time on a specific topic. At the end of this time there is a vote with only two possible answers: Finish Discussions/Pass Motion and Continue Discussions/Don't Pass Motion.
If there is a majority vote for "Finish Discussions/Pass Motion" then the discussion is made, no more discussion.
If the majority vote is for "Continue Discussions/Don't Pass Motion" then the discussion continues until the next deadline, where a similar vote will take place.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:28 am


Ladyfriend
If we are having a constitution then it should be obviously, and always, a work-in-progress. It should be open to addition, subtraction, and alteration as and when the party wishes. Just start now with an empty constitution and add articles when they are needed.
I like this idea, and, for the most part, I agree with it. The issues I have are with articles that can't stand alone. Some articles depend on others to make sense. If this was avoided with reorganization (which it should be) then the idea would work. I think that we should start from scratch on the new constitution and just use the old one for reference.

With this system, we would set up a blank constitution. (Nothing will have changed, because no powers can be given by a blank document.) Once this is in place, inserting new articles will be as simple as amending the constitution.

Of course, this still has the problem of how to get anything done. So far, I support the idea 'Aperium' posted above.

Myslec
Crew


Ladyfriend
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:55 pm


Myslec
I like this idea, and, for the most part, I agree with it. The issues I have are with articles that can't stand alone. Some articles depend on others to make sense. If this was avoided with reorganization (which it should be) then the idea would work. I think that we should start from scratch on the new constitution and just use the old one for reference.
The choices I see for doing this is to include supportive articles in any proposed amendment. This way all required changes go through at once and there's no lag, but amendment discussions become more complicated and this may delay their implimentation. Or Supportive articles could be passes seperately to get the main body of it through more quickly. If the supportive aricles were discussed at the same time it would avoid a lag but would delay other full amendments.

Myslec

Of course, this still has the problem of how to get anything done. So far, I support the idea 'Aperium' posted above.
I don't see how I could object to it. I'm not sure how we are going to decide on the poll options for when we vote on the amendment itself. Do we have the writer of the first version of the amendment produce a finalversion for us to vote for or against. Or do we have people produce several different versions and vote for the one we support most. Both of these would cause problems for an organisation of this size (the first would slow us down while we try to find the right version) and the other would require a [possibley unreasonable] amount of involvement by the current members.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:29 am


Ladyfriend
Myslec
I like this idea, and, for the most part, I agree with it. The issues I have are with articles that can't stand alone. Some articles depend on others to make sense. If this was avoided with reorganization (which it should be) then the idea would work. I think that we should start from scratch on the new constitution and just use the old one for reference.
The choices I see for doing this is to include supportive articles in any proposed amendment. This way all required changes go through at once and there's no lag, but amendment discussions become more complicated and this may delay their implementation. Or Supportive articles could be passes separately to get the main body of it through more quickly. If the supportive articles were discussed at the same time it would avoid a lag but would delay other full amendments.
I think that articles should be organized such that each one is independent and can stand entirely alone.

Ladyfriend
Myslec

Of course, this still has the problem of how to get anything done. So far, I support the idea 'Aperium' posted above.
I don't see how I could object to it. I'm not sure how we are going to decide on the poll options for when we vote on the amendment itself. Do we have the writer of the first version of the amendment produce a final version for us to vote for or against. Or do we have people produce several different versions and vote for the one we support most. Both of these would cause problems for an organization of this size (the first would slow us down while we try to find the right version) and the other would require a [possibly unreasonable] amount of involvement by the current members.
Anyone should be able to write an improved version of any proposed article. If multiple new articles appear, we should compromise between them until most members are in agreement, then we should vote to extend discussion on it. (that's my view at any rate.)

Myslec
Crew


Aperium
Crew

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:28 pm


Myslec


Ladyfriend
Myslec

Of course, this still has the problem of how to get anything done. So far, I support the idea 'Aperium' posted above.
I don't see how I could object to it. I'm not sure how we are going to decide on the poll options for when we vote on the amendment itself. Do we have the writer of the first version of the amendment produce a final version for us to vote for or against. Or do we have people produce several different versions and vote for the one we support most. Both of these would cause problems for an organization of this size (the first would slow us down while we try to find the right version) and the other would require a [possibly unreasonable] amount of involvement by the current members.
Anyone should be able to write an improved version of any proposed article. If multiple new articles appear, we should compromise between them until most members are in agreement, then we should vote to extend discussion on it. (that's my view at any rate.)
In addition to this I think that any proposed revision to an amendment that is under construction, that is generally accepted by us(the crew), should be made to the amendment without the need for a formal vote. A vote should still be required to finalize and pass the amendment.
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