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| Who woukd win? |
| Aikido |
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70% |
[ 7 ] |
| MMA |
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30% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 10 |
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 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:53 pm
I was scanning through Youtube ... when I found this ... Aikido vs MMA: Part OneAikido vs MMA: Part TwoI then saw this: Bas Rutten: Aikido in MMAAll of these got me thinking ... which would win in a fight ... sure the first two videos would be evidence enough ... but so many questions popped up ... was there an expierence difference ... who had the better cardio ... stuff like that ... Ok ... let us assume that two people of same build and age train in their disciplines ... [NOTE: ths is where things get slighty difficult ... seeing that MMA fighters train in multiple disciplines, most of the times gravitating to a specific branch, but in this scenario let us say that the MMA fighter is well rounded training in both striking and grappling] for the same amount of time ... As for the venue ... there are two scenarios here ... in a ring/cage or the street ... ring sport or self defense ... each wold have advantages and disadvantages in either venue ... Now let the debate begin ...
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:08 am
I would have to say MMA ... just for the striking aspect ... sure I can agree that aikido is very effective throws ... but I haven't ever seen a aikido demo (at least the ones I've seen) where the the legs are attacked ... so for me (for now) ... I have to pick MMA ...
[NOTE: I may jump ship, due to the fact that I'm not to entirely sure]
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:29 pm
Practicing Aikido, this debate is near and dear to the heart. It is vitally important to take this note about Aikido that could bear poorly for MMA in this situation. Aikido is a purely reactionary martial art designed very specifically to deal with striking attacks and common street grappling formats. Afro has a valid point. You will almost never see an Aikidoka go after a leg defense. Leg defenses in Aikido are extremely advanced and most don't even begin to learn them until they are well into their Shodan (first degree black belt.) Before the leg defenses are taught, however, specific motions for avoiding kicks are taught. Only the most rapid fire combination kicks are a real threat to an aikidoka.
So lets take a look at the pros and cons of the argument, presuming both situations and equal levels of training. (On that latter note, it is worth noting that even though an MMA fighter generalizes their training with eventual gravitation, they can gain combat proficiency significantly quicker than all but the most savant-ish Aikidoka.)
MMA possesses striking. Against a sufficiently trained Aikidoka, this is unfortunately not an equalizer, so we must look elsewhere in MMA for an advantage. Clinching is arguably the absolutely worst thing you can do with an Aikidoka, because this takes the fight into their perfect element. Likewise, wrestling takedowns and Judo throws are going to be extremely difficult from a high position. The best bet for someone looking to take the Aikidoka down is therefore to shoot in low where they must rely more on footwork to keep them safe and have few retaliatory techniques at basic proficiency level. DO NOT LET AN AIKIDOKA GO TO THEIR KNEES! I've only been training for a few months and I am already just as dangerous on my knees as I am standing. If you take them down, go all the way to the guard or beyond. Once you're there, the jiu-jitsu game can take over. Aikidoka at basic proficiency do not have much submission defense beyond a supremely advanced knowledge of how the body's mechanics work. So for MMA, shoot low, go to ground, and work quickly for a submission before the Aikidoka's superior ukemi and balance kick in and get them back up. I recommend leg locks where possible, as Aikidoka train extensively to limber up the elbows, shoulders, and wrists.
It is critical to note for takedown purposes that Aikido has the single best ukemi in all of martial arts. Period. No argument available. Not even advanced Judo-ka can match an Aikidoka's ukemi. That means that when you shoot low to take them down, you have to be all over them extremely fast or they'll just roll back to standing. Use the cage or a nearby wall if you have one to limit their escape range, and remember that they ukemi not only forward and back but every other direction you can think of too.
This is the loophole that allows basic proficiency MMA to take out basic proficiency Aikido. Do not strike with them. They will just use footwork to ignore your fast jabs and kicks, a combination can put you dangerously close to them where you don't want to be, and a power shot to a reactionary fighter moves extremely slow. Do not clinch with them, because even at low level Aikido trains how to deal with every conceivable clinch situation. Do not shoot for the stomach or hips, aim for the knees. If you center of balance is anywhere near theirs, you lose.
Now where the aikidoka really shines is in the street venue. They might do well in the ring if they are forced into that situation (though any real Aikidoka would probably prefer not to enter into MMA situations if they don't have to. MMA is quite aggressive, not at all the harmonious environment that an Aikidoka should prefer.) But in the street, they are supreme. At shodan (again, first degree black belt) there is no type of weapon attack that the Aikidoka has trained extensively against. Likewise striking attacks. And contrary to popular belief there is striking in Aikido, mostly derived from sword fighting and rudimentary karate. An Aikidoka who perceives it necessary will happily smack you in the face while he takes his sweet time positioning your arm to toss you.
Perhaps the worst problem when attacking an Aikidoka comes not in the risk of injury to body, but the psychological effect. My close friend and fellow Aikidoka is only 5'4" but has little difficulty tossing my 6'4", 250 lb. frame around the mat. An aikidoka might choose not even to throw and pin you, but may instead simply take your balance and push you away, leaving you staggering but unhurt while they patiently walk away or wait for your next attempt.
MMA vs. Aikido is the classic argument of aggressive martial arts versus reactionary martial arts. I'm partial to the latter but I must admit that there is the glaring loophole that I described above which opens the door just a crack for the MMA fighter to win the fight. Venue isn't as important with these arts. I can't imagine, however how frustrating it would be for an MMA fighter in a ring to find themselves pinned by an Aikidoka, not being forced to submit but simply unable to get up or move.
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Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:35 am
quiet_way Practicing Aikido, this debate is near and dear to the heart. It is vitally important to take this note about Aikido that could bear poorly for MMA in this situation. Aikido is a purely reactionary martial art designed very specifically to deal with striking attacks and common street grappling formats. Afro has a valid point. You will almost never see an Aikidoka go after a leg defense. Leg defenses in Aikido are extremely advanced and most don't even begin to learn them until they are well into their Shodan (first degree black belt.) Before the leg defenses are taught, however, specific motions for avoiding kicks are taught. Only the most rapid fire combination kicks are a real threat to an aikidoka. So lets take a look at the pros and cons of the argument, presuming both situations and equal levels of training. (On that latter note, it is worth noting that even though an MMA fighter generalizes their training with eventual gravitation, they can gain combat proficiency significantly quicker than all but the most savant-ish Aikidoka.) MMA possesses striking. Against a sufficiently trained Aikidoka, this is unfortunately not an equalizer, so we must look elsewhere in MMA for an advantage. Clinching is arguably the absolutely worst thing you can do with an Aikidoka, because this takes the fight into their perfect element. Likewise, wrestling takedowns and Judo throws are going to be extremely difficult from a high position. The best bet for someone looking to take the Aikidoka down is therefore to shoot in low where they must rely more on footwork to keep them safe and have few retaliatory techniques at basic proficiency level. DO NOT LET AN AIKIDOKA GO TO THEIR KNEES! I've only been training for a few months and I am already just as dangerous on my knees as I am standing. If you take them down, go all the way to the guard or beyond. Once you're there, the jiu-jitsu game can take over. Aikidoka at basic proficiency do not have much submission defense beyond a supremely advanced knowledge of how the body's mechanics work. So for MMA, shoot low, go to ground, and work quickly for a submission before the Aikidoka's superior ukemi and balance kick in and get them back up. I recommend leg locks where possible, as Aikidoka train extensively to limber up the elbows, shoulders, and wrists. It is critical to note for takedown purposes that Aikido has the single best ukemi in all of martial arts. Period. No argument available. Not even advanced Judo-ka can match an Aikidoka's ukemi. That means that when you shoot low to take them down, you have to be all over them extremely fast or they'll just roll back to standing. Use the cage or a nearby wall if you have one to limit their escape range, and remember that they ukemi not only forward and back but every other direction you can think of too. This is the loophole that allows basic proficiency MMA to take out basic proficiency Aikido. Do not strike with them. They will just use footwork to ignore your fast jabs and kicks, a combination can put you dangerously close to them where you don't want to be, and a power shot to a reactionary fighter moves extremely slow. Do not clinch with them, because even at low level Aikido trains how to deal with every conceivable clinch situation. Do not shoot for the stomach or hips, aim for the knees. If you center of balance is anywhere near theirs, you lose. Now where the aikidoka really shines is in the street venue. They might do well in the ring if they are forced into that situation (though any real Aikidoka would probably prefer not to enter into MMA situations if they don't have to. MMA is quite aggressive, not at all the harmonious environment that an Aikidoka should prefer.) But in the street, they are supreme. At shodan (again, first degree black belt) there is no type of weapon attack that the Aikidoka has trained extensively against. Likewise striking attacks. And contrary to popular belief there is striking in Aikido, mostly derived from sword fighting and rudimentary karate. An Aikidoka who perceives it necessary will happily smack you in the face while he takes his sweet time positioning your arm to toss you. Perhaps the worst problem when attacking an Aikidoka comes not in the risk of injury to body, but the psychological effect. My close friend and fellow Aikidoka is only 5'4" but has little difficulty tossing my 6'4", 250 lb. frame around the mat. An aikidoka might choose not even to throw and pin you, but may instead simply take your balance and push you away, leaving you staggering but unhurt while they patiently walk away or wait for your next attempt. MMA vs. Aikido is the classic argument of aggressive martial arts versus reactionary martial arts. I'm partial to the latter but I must admit that there is the glaring loophole that I described above which opens the door just a crack for the MMA fighter to win the fight. Venue isn't as important with these arts. I can't imagine, however how frustrating it would be for an MMA fighter in a ring to find themselves pinned by an Aikidoka, not being forced to submit but simply unable to get up or move. not to be too negitive, but akido has terrible stand up and there throws are far worst than judo's, they also do not use proper pins and rely on a low chance movement in joint manipulation. the thing i know from first hand and have seen it plenty of times is an aikidoka is not trained to handle another fighter but usally the avg person that would start a conflict.the the reason its called a self defence art. take someone with reasonable know how of a few arts and they should overtake the striking aspect, since joint manipulation is a key factor in aikido i feel it makes it a one trick pony, getting caught in one is a low percentage chance and if it happens you still have the possible counters to it, saying to will knock the fighter off balance is not someyou you can assume you can do either, example if this fighter has a kickboxing and judo base your prob not gonna knock his balance off xP. it just comes down to the fact that aikido is not a combat martial arts, its ment for both self protection and mental strength. id have odds in the favor of the MMA fighter with 10:1 odds, given the MMA fighter isnt a random thug off the street xP
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Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:45 am
Lets assume the MMA opponent studies Karate,Jiu Jitsu and Boxing this is just an example but from what I know thoses styles are straight foward and they play on the same field as Aikido which is close quarters combat.. Aikido is a deadly art that studies the ineffectivness of agressive movements hence using the opponents weight against them and taking a fairly stationary stance. Quiet_way made a good point Aikido has developed moves in which you need not to stand to be able to defend against on-coming attacks it's things like these that make me think conventional martial arts like those 3 listed above wouldnt do much use against a seasoned master of Aikido.
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Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:34 pm
Regral not to be too negitive, but akido has terrible stand up and there throws are far worst than judo's, they also do not use proper pins and rely on a low chance movement in joint manipulation. the thing i know from first hand and have seen it plenty of times is an aikidoka is not trained to handle another fighter but usally the avg person that would start a conflict.the the reason its called a self defence art. take someone with reasonable know how of a few arts and they should overtake the striking aspect, since joint manipulation is a key factor in aikido i feel it makes it a one trick pony, getting caught in one is a low percentage chance and if it happens you still have the possible counters to it, saying to will knock the fighter off balance is not someyou you can assume you can do either, example if this fighter has a kickboxing and judo base your prob not gonna knock his balance off xP. it just comes down to the fact that aikido is not a combat martial arts, its ment for both self protection and mental strength. id have odds in the favor of the MMA fighter with 10:1 odds, given the MMA fighter isnt a random thug off the street xP Apparently you've never seen a real Shodan aikidoka in action. However, your argument for the purposes of this thread is fundamentally sound. The only real incorrectness is in the assertion that aikido relies on joint manipulation. To the outside observer this is the case, but it is only the appearance. Aikido specifically trains to avoid the pain compliance seen in cruder arts and joint manipulation is only part of the pinning process. The true essence of Aikido's throws (which are vastly superior to Judo's from a kinesthetic standpoint as they rely far more on finesse) is balance disruption used to neutralize attacks (both grappling and striking) to render them ineffective. However, I return to to point that your argument matches mine and I agree that the "standup" of Aikido when you consider the attack format I originally cited has only footwork defense. Functionally, an MMA person can exploit this loophole to take the fight into their arena. I stand by my assertion. Shoot the knees, quick mount, ground game, MMA can win. Remember, in these hypothetical situations we must assume an equal level of skill or the situation is invalidated. Further, we are dealing with a battlefield martial art versus a combat sport martial system, which are vastly different beasts. It must be remembered that aiki-jutsu (the fundamental martial style of aikido with judo and jiu-jutsu) was designed specifically to deal with the situation of an unarmed samurai being attack by an armed opponent on the battlefield. It was only when the founder of aikido stepped in, adding components and detailed biomechanical analysis to the picture that it became the premier self-defensive martial art for those who are in no way interested in hurting their attacker.
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:11 pm
o Boxie o Lets assume the MMA opponent studies Karate,Jiu Jitsu and Boxing this is just an example but from what I know thoses styles are straight foward and they play on the same field as Aikido which is close quarters combat.. Aikido is a deadly art that studies the ineffectivness of agressive movements hence using the opponents weight against them and taking a fairly stationary stance. Quiet_way made a good point Aikido has developed moves in which you need not to stand to be able to defend against on-coming attacks it's things like these that make me think conventional martial arts like those 3 listed above wouldnt do much use against a seasoned master of Aikido. The styles you stated aren't always straight forward ... for example ... a double leg takedown is not the only way to take a fight to the ground ... he could pull guard ... And that raises another question in my mind ... is there an effective way for an akido practioner to maintain control on a grounded opponent ...?
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:14 pm
baka_boy1221 o Boxie o Lets assume the MMA opponent studies Karate,Jiu Jitsu and Boxing this is just an example but from what I know thoses styles are straight foward and they play on the same field as Aikido which is close quarters combat.. Aikido is a deadly art that studies the ineffectivness of agressive movements hence using the opponents weight against them and taking a fairly stationary stance. Quiet_way made a good point Aikido has developed moves in which you need not to stand to be able to defend against on-coming attacks it's things like these that make me think conventional martial arts like those 3 listed above wouldnt do much use against a seasoned master of Aikido. The styles you stated aren't always straight forward ... for example ... a double leg takedown is not the only way to take a fight to the ground ... he could pull guard ... And that raises another question in my mind ... is there an effective way for an akido practioner to maintain control on a grounded opponent ...? Almost any pin used by a non-aggressive aikidoka can be altered into a submission hold, and some of the root arts were judo and jiujitsu thus submission and ground control are quite possible as soon as the aikidoka abandons the premise of non-pain-compliance, which they would have to do in an MMA cage anyway. Pulling guard might be another viable hole, especially if you can come down in rubber guard and slap on a quick armbar or triangle.
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:23 pm
i love showing up to these topics with an intense debate going underway after being gone for so long.
into the subject now.
the video was interesting to watch though i could see a good age difference between the two fighters. the aikido master being the older and more experienced martial artist but im sure this matter had been covered
now imagining both fighters around the same age and experience brings in the fun factor. having some experience in Aikido and a high respect for it can say it is not just a defensive martial art and has a well rounded educational and physical training and tatics. enough that the US Military implemented much of its techniques.
on a personal note i want to say Aikido would win over MMA based much on what i have seen on that video and experience within it
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:14 am
quiet_way baka_boy1221 o Boxie o Lets assume the MMA opponent studies Karate,Jiu Jitsu and Boxing this is just an example but from what I know thoses styles are straight foward and they play on the same field as Aikido which is close quarters combat.. Aikido is a deadly art that studies the ineffectivness of agressive movements hence using the opponents weight against them and taking a fairly stationary stance. Quiet_way made a good point Aikido has developed moves in which you need not to stand to be able to defend against on-coming attacks it's things like these that make me think conventional martial arts like those 3 listed above wouldnt do much use against a seasoned master of Aikido. The styles you stated aren't always straight forward ... for example ... a double leg takedown is not the only way to take a fight to the ground ... he could pull guard ... And that raises another question in my mind ... is there an effective way for an akido practioner to maintain control on a grounded opponent ...? Almost any pin used by a non-aggressive aikidoka can be altered into a submission hold, and some of the root arts were judo and jiujitsu thus submission and ground control are quite possible as soon as the aikidoka abandons the premise of non-pain-compliance, which they would have to do in an MMA cage anyway. Pulling guard might be another viable hole, especially if you can come down in rubber guard and slap on a quick armbar or triangle. I've seen steven seagal's akido, work really well, but I like your argument, I'd definitely pull rubber guard (Being a jiu jitsu guy myself), but an armbar is too common, and the...Akidoka was it?...Might be able to pass it quite easily since its seen all the time, I'd go for invisible collar to omoplata sweep, but if he's caught with the omoplata, then awesome, I'll finish from there, but if he rolls, I'll control the hip, to twister path, then finish from there, I'd rather play it safe than sorry. because in side control, he could try for some small joint manipulation, since my arms are in his reach, but if I got twister side control, he really has nothing to grab onto the small of my back is crushing his face, my hips are turned away from him, both my arms are controlling his hips, and then I hook a leg, to twister control and finish....But Akido does exist in MMA, Anderson Silva started Training with Steven Segal for his second bout with Chael Sonnen, so we might be in for a treat if Anderson uses some Akido.
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