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Would you be willing to allow the goverment to track you if you trusted that goverment (like Novos)
  Yes?
  No?
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kurikun

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:39 pm


As anyone who has read a fairly decent collection of Science Fiction should be familer with the idea of tracking credit cards, palm scanners, eye identifacation devices, and the like. Usually used by goverments to track and keep people happy, or by companies to improve security and/or advertising. We've arrived at a point with the current day technology to make some of these things a reality. Ways to track all citizens, ways to simplify finances, and other things that would help control citizens and, in general, make their lives better.

When Novos begins to take over things, we will have the option of instituting change. This makes the technology of Science Fiction which would help people rule, an option. Public opinion of implimenting some of these things might not be very high. Esepecially if it's not sold properly. Some of them would invite hacking, identity theft, and bring up invasion of privacy issues.

Is the public dissention worth the things we can do with implamenting of new systems involving higher technology? Or should we stick with the tried and true levels of technology we have today? I wouldn't mind having a tracking chip in my neck if it meant that people could find me when I'm kidnapped, but that's just my opinion.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:58 pm


It basically breaks down to privacy vs. convienience. It'd be more convienient to have a single card or implanted chip to buy stuff with but it makes it easier to track your buying, movements and so on.

PErsonally, I'm all for convienience, I also think that anyone whining about privacy is probably trying to hide something (but that's just my personal opinion)

Basically it breaks down to how much you trust the government and how liberal your society is as to wether you're willing to have that kind of trackability

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Myslec
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:21 am


It would give the government immense control over the individual. If the government became corrupt, then it would be near unstoppable.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:32 pm


Ah, but our goal is to create a goverment which will be very resillient to corruption. So we want convience?

Then what form will we make this convience? A chip? Barcodes? A single Card? Fingerprints? Eyescanners? Mini DNA tests? Ok.. maybe DNA isn't as handy as it could be, but still, you get the point. How far do we want to take technology? How conveienvet do we want to make it, and what ways do we think is best?

kurikun


Fenris Claiborne
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:58 pm


Well, I'm of two minds about this, which really doesn't help at all. I'll explain nonetheless.

I don't like it:
It seems that governments today are creeping closer and closer to the "super-state" politicalness of 1984. Facts are being changed, propaganda is being utilized, and 'Big Brother' has got an eye glued up your backside so far he can see out yer face. We have only to look to the recent wire-tapping bit from the U.S. to realize how far this has gone. Look at what people no longer ind surprising (even down-right acceptable for some...). This is kind of thing that got people accused of telling conspiracy theories as little as 5-10 years ago. The government is even refusing to follow its own rules on this one, and it's downright scary if you ask me.

What this is asking is "Would it be ok to do if people trusted us to do it?" and "Do we trust ourselves to do it?" I personally say "No." to both. It's not that I don't feel we couldn't do a responsible job of it, but once instituted, there are no garuntees. Privacy is a fairly basic human desire. By tracking and keeping tabs upon a large population risks will be incurred. As you noted, this would open up a whole new realm of information crime, and I feel it would go far beyond what anyone could reasonably predict.

That, and what exactly would we be watching for? If it's for commercial usage, that means that the nformation reaches a much larger group of people outside of our control and the possibility for potential crime skyrockets by thousands and thousands of percents. If it's for usage with the law, that opens up a legal can of worms. How much observation is too much? At what point woul we be turning the cameras (or whatever) off? Will people have a choice in whether or not they can be monitered? If so, again how much of an eye do we keep on them? If not, much harder to sell that idea publicaly, and will it be submittable as legal evidence? And for what percentage of the population will be moniterred in such a manner, as we obviously can't institute such a policy even nationwide without investing billions (not a good idea) and requiring obscene amounts of man-power.

And my weakest yet I think most important argument here (and odds are most predictable if you've been watching for a length of time) are the morals of such a system. As the government we would have a responsability for the safety of our citizens, yes. But we would also have a duty to uphold their civil liberties and basic rights as human beings.

*Busts out a little TJ*
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

So that's one mind.

The other mind while being much more concise makes an excellent point:
That could come in handy.

I don't like that mind. But it's there regardless.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:59 am


Look at it this way:
Governments and companies already track a large portion of what we do, from what we buy to where we live, even who we hang out with and what car we drive. In South Africa the government even knows if you have a TV or not.
It's not a matter of decreasing privacy, we already have none, it's a matter of consolidating that data so that it can be used to the benefit of mankind.
I agree that privacy is a very important right, but when that right infringes on others, we need to know how, why and perhaps even when.
The thing I see working the best is retro-active or reactive monitoring, I.E. Your records are locked until there's a need for it (some kind of trial prehaps), and any and all access to said records is strictly monitored and limited.

Besides, how cool would it be if the key to your front door also unlocked your car and allowed you to buy groceries?

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kurikun

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:47 pm


Yes. Any/all information about you and your whearabouts/habits require you to allow that data to be accessible. In person.

The exception to that would be in cases in which this data is neccisary for trials.

This person was killed! *calls up the department and calls in the data from that area at the ETD* Oooh look! Bobby Jhon was there! He must have done the killing! CAll him in!

Now, the billions, yes, I agree that it would cost a bundle. I'm horrible when dealing with the economy, so I'll leave that to someone else to figure out. Not something I'm studied in.

So long as we kept the data for the sole use of upholding those 3 inalienable rights, then how can we be at fault for it?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:27 am


kurikun
Ah, but our goal is to create a goverment which will be very resillient to corruption. So we want convience?

Then what form will we make this convience? A chip? Barcodes? A single Card? Fingerprints? Eyescanners? Mini DNA tests? Ok.. maybe DNA isn't as handy as it could be, but still, you get the point. How far do we want to take technology? How conveienvet do we want to make it, and what ways do we think is best?
DNA tests wouldn't work. I'm an example of why.

Myslec
Crew


Aperium
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:27 am


Myslec
kurikun
Ah, but our goal is to create a goverment which will be very resillient to corruption. So we want convience?

Then what form will we make this convience? A chip? Barcodes? A single Card? Fingerprints? Eyescanners? Mini DNA tests? Ok.. maybe DNA isn't as handy as it could be, but still, you get the point. How far do we want to take technology? How conveienvet do we want to make it, and what ways do we think is best?
DNA tests wouldn't work. I'm an example of why.
No, we are an example of why it wouldn't work
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:39 pm


Aperium
Myslec
DNA tests wouldn't work. I'm an example of why.
No, we are an example of why it wouldn't work
You weren't on yet so I couldn't say 'we'.

Myslec
Crew


Fenris Claiborne
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:59 pm


Deviant
Look at it this way:
...It's not a matter of decreasing privacy, we already have...


I look at that and see yet another argument against doing this.

I do understand where you are going with how we have to balance a person's right to rpivacy weighed against the rights of the public's safety in certain situations ("The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." right Spock?). However, this once again draws parallels to what is currently happening in th U.S. with the wire-tapping scandal. How much is too much? At what point do we as a government over-step our boundaries?

Obviously access to such records would be very, very strict.

But honestly, how would you expect an average person to react if you told them that the governent was going to be keeping tabs on their activities?

Not cool enough to help justify this.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:27 am


So how would we tell the average citizen that, so that they understood it, but also so that they didn't go up in arms about it?

I mean, it would be like we had satalites all over the area which we owned. Which.. I'm pretty sure we already do have a hell of a lot of spy satalittes up in the air right now. But we're not freaking out about that.

The general public would be fine with it, so long as we controlled their initial panic and let them get used to the idea.

kurikun


Fenris Claiborne
Crew

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:13 pm


An excellent question.

But the thing here is that most people are blissfully ignorant of such things; not per-se the satellites thmselves, but I'd bet that if you told an average person the degree to which the government currently knows about who they are and what their activities are, I'd be willing to bet they'd be a tad disconcerted.

Is this something they should have to "get used to"? I'm all for a strong government, but this seems a tad underhanded to me (perhaps not the best diction there, however I trust my implication comes across).
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:12 am


Here's the thing: We've been "brainwashed" into believing that privacy is important, that it's some inate right that we have to defend, when, infact , privacy is not only an illusion, but a harmful one at that.

What purpose does privacy serve, who does it benefit besides those who are doing something they don't want to be caught doing? Surely in a society that can accept even the most bizarre actions as "normal" the only thing worth hiding is illicit?

And to weigh someone's privacy as more important then another's welfare seems a tad unethical. Sure, I don't want the government to be peeking over my shoulder every five minutes, but I'd rather have that then having an axe-murderer, a thief or a conman doing it.

Obviously, safe-guards need to be put in place to stop any negatively-minded elements from accessing this data. Things like only opening these records up to scrutiny after due consideration and all other avenues have been explored, and only then on a "need to know" basis. We surround our information with red-tape so that the rest of our lives can be lived without it.

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3.5-D

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:20 pm


I guess that would be alright, as long as we make fair laws. But come on, do we really want a Thought Police situation? We do not want some sort of 1984 situation on our hands.

2+2 = 5.
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