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 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:36 pm
(This applied to all three Abramatic religions but I wasn't sure which sub-forum to post it in and I didn't want to spam the guild by posting it in all three, so into the main hub-forum it goes!)
I found an interesting quote not to long ago and was wondering if I could get the opinions of a few other members of Abramatic faiths on it:
Quote: God is a mechanic, and the universe is his machine. We are all but parts in this machine -- not cogs, no, not something as vital as that. If we are lucky, we are paint flecks on a screw holding in the bracket that helps support one end of a cog. And God, like all mechanics, worries only about maintaining his machine. He does not care for the well-being of flecks of paint, nor screws, nor even cogs. When a small, trivial part breaks, he does not mend, tailor, carefully groom and re-forge it. He simply replaces it. He replaces it so the machine might continue to run, with new parts, with new paint and he discards the old and the broken with nary a thought. The machine runs on. Tended by a God who does not care. Not out of cruelty, or spite, but simply because it is not his job. That is God.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:04 pm
Sounds like an accurate description of the Demiurge
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:39 pm
Sounds to me like something a Muslim would say IF that is what they believe. I cannot be sure of this, but I have heard it described that way, but not by a Muslim, so I do not know...
Catholics do not believe this. They believe that God loves the things he has created and cares for them. The many appearances of angels to people and and people's talks with God? Not to mention his sending his Son to earth to die on the cross for us. I am certain this applies to most other Christian faiths as well.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:23 pm
Hermonie Urameshi Sounds to me like something a Muslim would say IF that is what they believe. I cannot be sure of this, but I have heard it described that way, but not by a Muslim, so I do not know...
What? neutral
This sounds like something I've heard people other denominations say. But it was more along the lines of the "the individual isn't important, the collective is" or something like that. I've also heard some Reform Jews make similar metaphors.
Yeah, God loves all his creation but you can love a clock without caring if it's paint is chipped here and there.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:44 pm
Renkon Root Hermonie Urameshi Sounds to me like something a Muslim would say IF that is what they believe. I cannot be sure of this, but I have heard it described that way, but not by a Muslim, so I do not know...
What? neutral
This sounds like something I've heard people other denominations say. But it was more along the lines of the "the individual isn't important, the collective is" or something like that. I've also heard some Reform Jews make similar metaphors.
Yeah, God loves all his creation but you can love a clock without caring if it's paint is chipped here and there.
Plus he repainted it once, when he flooded the place. I mean if every fleck of paint is important in its own right, why kill off 99.9% of humanity?
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:48 pm
Sanguina Cruenta Plus he repainted it once, when he flooded the place. I mean if every fleck of paint is important in its own right, why kill off 99.9% of humanity?
Exactly!
However, I do feel I should point out that God did promise NEVER to do that again after the flood was over.
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Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:14 pm
Renkon Root Hermonie Urameshi Sounds to me like something a Muslim would say IF that is what they believe. I cannot be sure of this, but I have heard it described that way, but not by a Muslim, so I do not know...
What? neutral
This sounds like something I've heard people other denominations say. But it was more along the lines of the "the individual isn't important, the collective is" or something like that. I've also heard some Reform Jews make similar metaphors.
Yeah, God loves all his creation but you can love a clock without caring if it's paint is chipped here and there.
I said that's how Islam was described to me, but not by a Muslim. I can't be sure of its authenticity.
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Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:22 pm
Renkon Root Sanguina Cruenta Plus he repainted it once, when he flooded the place. I mean if every fleck of paint is important in its own right, why kill off 99.9% of humanity?
Exactly!
However, I do feel I should point out that God did promise NEVER to do that again after the flood was over.
He promised never to flood the world. He could kill everyone a different way.
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Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:28 pm
Sanguina Cruenta He promised never to flood the world. He could kill everyone a different way.
I suppose...
But I think that he won't because he also learned some sort of lesson in doing that. It was an important part of his character development. In the same way that Vegeta (from DBZ) could destroy every person on the planet if he wanted to, but he won't because he's grown as a person and realizes that doing so would be wrong.
(Wow, talk about heresy. I just compared God to a cartoon anti-hero. Good thing Jews don't believe in Hell. xd )
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Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:05 pm
Is he not considered omniscient in Jewish theology? because I reckon if you know everything you wouldn't really learn from experiences.
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Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:10 pm
Sanguina Cruenta Is he not considered omniscient in Jewish theology? because I reckon if you know everything you wouldn't really learn from experiences.
I cannot speak for all Jewish theology. My family is Reform and are very liberal with our views on the holy scriptures and such.
However, the above posted is not a Jewish view but rather my own, atheistic view. I see the Bible as nothing more than just another work of fiction and God as nothing more than another character.
That being said... God does (at several points) admit to his being jealous and petty. You'd think that a being who is omniscient would also be above those rather base character flaws. If he knows everything than he should both know and understand the reasons for someone worshiping another god over him and not be jealous but forgive the mortal in question rather than curse them.
There's something in literature called "tell but don't show" and then its inverse "show but don't tell". Its these things that I think apply to God's character in the Bible. He says he's omniscient but does not behave as one who is all seeing and all knowing might. That is "tell but don't show". At the same time his character grows and changes from the Beginning in Genesis all the way through to the end of the New Testament (I'm sure he keeps growing in the Qu'ran (sp?) but I have not read that and do not know). However, none of this character growth is discussed in the text (with I think a few brief words from Jesus in one of the Gospels). This is "show but don't tell".
So... yeah...
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Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:13 pm
Renkon Root Sanguina Cruenta He promised never to flood the world. He could kill everyone a different way.
I suppose...
But I think that he won't because he also learned some sort of lesson in doing that. It was an important part of his character development. In the same way that Vegeta (from DBZ) could destroy every person on the planet if he wanted to, but he won't because he's grown as a person and realizes that doing so would be wrong.
(Wow, talk about heresy. I just compared God to a cartoon anti-hero. Good thing Jews don't believe in Hell. xd )
You should read some of the stuff in the Nag Hammadi Library. The Sethians (classically considered Hebrews, but now being classified as Christians due to accepting Yeshua as a prophet and common themes in their literature) had some pretty "heretical" stuff. They seem to equate YHVH to being a demon who Created humans in an ignorant attempt to spite and torture God. That God placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil so that humanity could could have the hope to oppose him and not be slaves to him.
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Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:17 pm
rmcdra Renkon Root Sanguina Cruenta He promised never to flood the world. He could kill everyone a different way.
I suppose...
But I think that he won't because he also learned some sort of lesson in doing that. It was an important part of his character development. In the same way that Vegeta (from DBZ) could destroy every person on the planet if he wanted to, but he won't because he's grown as a person and realizes that doing so would be wrong.
(Wow, talk about heresy. I just compared God to a cartoon anti-hero. Good thing Jews don't believe in Hell. xd )
You should read some of the stuff in the Nag Hammadi Library. The Sethians (classically considered Hebrews, but now being classified as Christians due to accepting Yeshua as a prophet and common themes in their literature) had some pretty "heretical" stuff. They seem to equate YHVH to being a demon who Created humans in an ignorant attempt to spite and torture God. That God placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil so that humanity could could have the hope to oppose him and not be slaves to him.
That sounds fascinating!
biggrin
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Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:24 pm
That does sound pretty cool, and also explains the weirdness of that tree in Genesis. The story suddenly makes sense xd Which would make the Serpent an agent of god.
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Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:33 pm
Renkon Root rmcdra Renkon Root Sanguina Cruenta He promised never to flood the world. He could kill everyone a different way.
I suppose...
But I think that he won't because he also learned some sort of lesson in doing that. It was an important part of his character development. In the same way that Vegeta (from DBZ) could destroy every person on the planet if he wanted to, but he won't because he's grown as a person and realizes that doing so would be wrong.
(Wow, talk about heresy. I just compared God to a cartoon anti-hero. Good thing Jews don't believe in Hell. xd )
You should read some of the stuff in the Nag Hammadi Library. The Sethians (classically considered Hebrews, but now being classified as Christians due to accepting Yeshua as a prophet and common themes in their literature) had some pretty "heretical" stuff. They seem to equate YHVH to being a demon who Created humans in an ignorant attempt to spite and torture God. That God placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil so that humanity could could have the hope to oppose him and not be slaves to him.
That sounds fascinating!
biggrin
I know right? Here's some links to some of their writings. Do note though that the translations on this particular site are 10+ years out of date but it's the only translations we have in the Public domain that Brill doesn't seem to care about. Brill shut down a "Gnostic wiki" someone from Palm Tree Garden tried to start up containing the newer translations on grounds of "copyright infringement" The Apocalypse of Adam - One of the oldest texts considered Sethian. It's debated on whether this text can be classified as Jewish or Christian but I think the modern consensus is leaning toward Christian. The Apocryphon of John - One of the oldest surviving text that explicitly lays out the Sethian cosmology that other Christians used as a creation mythos.
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