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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:27 pm
I saw Hermione make a comment about the Eucharist in the get-to-know-you thread and rather than derail that one talking about it I thought I'd make a thread here instead.
What are your thoughts on the Eucharist? Is Catholic doctrine still that it is a literal transformation*? Do you believe this (whether or not you are Catholic)? What about the Eucharist in Protestant denominations?
*My understanding of Catholic doctrine tends to be several hundred years out of date.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:38 pm
Um... I don't know what the "Eucharist" is... sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:44 pm
Renkon Root Um... I don't know what the "Eucharist" is... sweatdrop
TUT TUT.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:51 pm
So its the Holy Communion, that's all you needed to say. I know what that it.
Keeping in mind that I am neither Christian/Catholic nor religious.... No, I don't think its meant to be taken literally. But rather is a metaphor for accepting Christ into yourself. (Or something like that.)
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:56 pm
I don't guess I believe in transubstantiation. I've always seen it as symbolic.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:09 pm
Renkon Root So its the Holy Communion, that's all you needed to say. I know what that it.
But then I wouldn't have been able to use LMGTFY! wink I hardly ever use that.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:03 pm
Quote: 27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgement on himself. 30 That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. 31 If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgement; 32 but since we are judged by (the) Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world. 33 Therefore, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that your meetings may not result in judgment. The other matters I shall set in order when I come. -1 Corinthians 11:27-34 (NAB) Although surrounding text was about eating his fill and getting drunk at Mass, the fact that this profanes the body and blood of the Lord (from RSV CE) makes me think that it may be real. As I said in the other topic, this is one I am personally having a hard time with, even though evidence points to it. Here is more on it.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:41 pm
Catholics teach that the Eucharist does transubstantiate into the literal body and blood of Christ.
Protestants say that the act is purely symbolic.
My take, I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I can see the significance of believing that it literally transubstantiates into the body and blood of Christ for the purpose of the ritual but I don't think it physically changes in substance.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:46 pm
rmcdra Catholics teach that the Eucharist does transubstantiate into the literal body and blood of Christ. Protestants say that the act is purely symbolic. My take, I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I can see the significance of believing that it literally transubstantiates into the body and blood of Christ for the purpose of the ritual but I don't think it physically changes in substance. I think I understand that. That is probably where I am right now, but then thinking about the Eucharistic miracles all over the world...
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:11 pm
Hermonie Urameshi rmcdra Catholics teach that the Eucharist does transubstantiate into the literal body and blood of Christ. Protestants say that the act is purely symbolic. My take, I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I can see the significance of believing that it literally transubstantiates into the body and blood of Christ for the purpose of the ritual but I don't think it physically changes in substance. I think I understand that. That is probably where I am right now, but then thinking about the Eucharistic miracles all over the world...I think they are possible since there are many mysteries we don't know but I'm skeptical of these claims, especially seeing that the latest one listed is 1730. My opinion about miracles though is that it's not the event that's the miracle, since there are many unexplained phenomena that we still don't understand yet we don't call them miracles, but rather what makes something a miracle is the significance the event has on an individual in that it fosters writing the Law in a persons heart.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:22 pm
It's no longer really a part of my religion, but I grew up Baptist, am currently being educated in Methodist theology and learned that for my liturgy class, and have had to express an understanding of it from a Unitarian Universalist perspective for my classwork. So I have a few different answers for this.
From a Baptist perspective, it is not actually a sacrament (a ritual that involves some unique miraculous involvement from God) but is done in memory of the last supper and Christ's sacrifice. There is no transubstantiation and nothing supernatural happening in it.
From a Methodist perspective, there are three parts to the Eucharist. That name has to do with giving thanks, it is also called Communion and therefore is about coming together as a community, and it is also a recognition and celebration of the last supper. All three elements are important, and there is something miraculous happening, but it is not about transubstantiation, which they do not believe. Instead, taking part in this coming together is a means of grace and whether the person is a Christian or not, the official stance is that there is something happening in this joining with the Christian community that makes a change in them. It is about human transformation rather than transformation of the materials.
From my own perspective as a UU, I wouldn't even practice this ritual. The traditional meanings don't apply to me since Jesus really isn't a part of my beliefs, and I feel that it would be disrespectful and pointless to do it. But some congregations do, so we have to learn how to do it. In these cases, the focus is on the thanksgiving and community aspects of it, and the last supper/sacrifice aspect downplayed or eliminated. So in this case, there is obviously no transubstantiation, since it is not even a remembrance of the blood and body speech and that would have no place in it.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:35 pm
I didn't think Communion was about coming together as a community - although I grant you that participation together as one church would be an important element of it - but about becoming one with Christ. Maybe I'm mistaken... I've never made a thorough study of Christianity outside of history.
I don't think it has to literally become meat and blood in order to be of Christ. I think the transubstantiation can be symbolic, in that the wafer and the wine contain the very essence of Christ, thus when one takes Communion one is taking Christ into oneself in a very real way, without it having to be in a literal way.
To be honest I really don't understand why it would be done if this were not the case. It sounds like it would be marvellously moving as a ritual.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:23 pm
Sanguina Cruenta I didn't think Communion was about coming together as a community - although I grant you that participation together as one church would be an important element of it - but about becoming one with Christ. Maybe I'm mistaken... I've never made a thorough study of Christianity outside of history. I don't think it has to literally become meat and blood in order to be of Christ. I think the transubstantiation can be symbolic, in that the wafer and the wine contain the very essence of Christ, thus when one takes Communion one is taking Christ into oneself in a very real way, without it having to be in a literal way. To be honest I really don't understand why it would be done if this were not the case. It sounds like it would be marvellously moving as a ritual. You've got the right ideas in the first and last paragraphs. As for the middle one, seeing and reading about some of the Eucharistic miracles may change your mind. I've read about them, but for some reason, I'm still having difficulty with it.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:25 pm
It's both, at least according to the explanation I've gotten here. The community isn't just the individual congregation, but the Church as a whole, which also includes union with Christ and God. But there is definitely an element of connection to each other, at least for some. A friend of mine described Communion as a continuation of a communal meal where early Christian communities came together to worship, rather than being necessarily connected to blood, symbolic or otherwise. It's a picture of community and helps build that community, emphasizing the need to care for brothers and sisters in Christ.
As a Baptist, it was never described to me as taking Christ into us. We did it to remember his words and the sacrifice, so it is connected symbolically. But not as a replacement of sorts, I guess. It's more that when we drink and eat, we should remember what was done for us. I would have said Christ is already in you and that grows through reading the Bible, praying, etc. We weren't big on rituals...Seems strange for a denomination named for one. biggrin But even there, while we might be known for it, it's worth noting that unlike most of Protestantism, Baptists generally would say nothing saving happens in Baptism and it's not a means of grace, it's just a step of obedience. The same is true for Communion, from that perspective. They sort of run from the idea that anything other than faith has any saving power, so they got rid of the sacramental nature of the rituals and turned them into things that are done just because God said so, not because anything happens in them.
So, basically...I'm sure there's some truth to the point of view that Christ is being taken into the person. But from the perspective of a former Baptist, that idea just rubs me the wrong way. So there's probably something I'm not able to see because I was taught so much not that that point of view was wrong, too close to Catholicism for their tastes.
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:53 pm
Hermonie Urameshi Sanguina Cruenta I didn't think Communion was about coming together as a community - although I grant you that participation together as one church would be an important element of it - but about becoming one with Christ. Maybe I'm mistaken... I've never made a thorough study of Christianity outside of history. I don't think it has to literally become meat and blood in order to be of Christ. I think the transubstantiation can be symbolic, in that the wafer and the wine contain the very essence of Christ, thus when one takes Communion one is taking Christ into oneself in a very real way, without it having to be in a literal way. To be honest I really don't understand why it would be done if this were not the case. It sounds like it would be marvellously moving as a ritual. You've got the right ideas in the first and last paragraphs. As for the middle one, seeing and reading about some of the Eucharistic miracles may change your mind. I've read about them, but for some reason, I'm still having difficulty with it. But shouldn't it happen every time? If the blood and flesh thing is literal, the miracle should take place every time, not just once in a while. I mean, I get that Catholic doctrine is more like "well it APPEARS to still be a wafer, but ACTUALLY it is totally meat really, it's just that its appearance is accidental". But if it's going to happen once, why doesn't it happen every time? If anything that makes me less credulous that it is a literal transformation.
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