|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:03 pm
The Jews do believe that there will be a Messiah and there are specific prophesies that will name him (or her, I suppose) as such. However, Jesus (Yehoshua) is not the Jewish Messiah.
Jesus failed to fulfill any of the six authentic messianic criteria:
The Moshiach Ben David (Messiah) must:
1) Have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and King Solomon.
2) Be anointed King Of Israel.
3) Return ALL the Jewish people to Israel
4) Rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
5) Bring peace to the world and end all war
6) Bring knowledge of G-D to the world
Jesus did not have correct genealogy, he was not appointed King, he did not return the exiles, he did not rebuild the temple, and the temple was actually destroyed after the rise of Christianity, there was no world peace and not everyone knew about G-D. If Christians have to knock on peoples doors to tell them about salvation through a man then not everyone knows about G-D. The Hebrew text also warns the Jews against Jesus, saying
"Do not hearken to the words of that prophet or the dreamer of a dream, for Hashem, your G-D, is testing you to know whether you love Hashem, your G-D with all your heart and all your soul. Hashem, your G-D, shall you follow and Him shall you fear, His commandments shall you observe, and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave"
"And that prophet and dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against Hashem your G-D, Who takes you out of the land of Egypt and Who redeems you from the house of slavery, to make you stray from the path which Hashem, your G-D, has commanded you should go, and you shall destroy the evil from your midst" -Deut 13:2-6)
This is saying even to a fellow Jew such as Jesus who tells the Jews things that aren't aligned with the "commandments" G-D gave us at Saini, we can't and will not follow, this is perversion, and commanded to banish Him/Her from our midst. Jesus's teachings were problematic with Jewish law, therefor, you can guess the rest. Note that the Jews did not directly kill Jesus, we just didn't care.
Jesus also did not get married and have children, and this is a commandment of every Jew to do, because if a man does not marry Jewish and have children and raise them Jewish, its a waste of life according to Jewish law, because its a commandment to "be fruitful and multiply" with your wife. Jesus did neither, and there for was not the "perfect Jew" Christians assume him to be. The messiah is NOT a suffering servant either, and blood of a human cannot atone for sins, since the blood of a human is impure and not fit for sacrifice, and sacrifices were only permitted for intentional sin. Under Jewish law a person cannot be redeemed by blood sacrifice, even while there was a standing temple. The redemption for intentional sin required prayer, repentance, and charity. In Jewish law, when blood was used to sacrifice it had to be poured on the Temple alter, by a Jewish priest. Further, only the blood from animals specified by Torah could be used and human blood can never be used, therefor under Jewish law Jesus blood cannot atone for our sins.
There is also no concept of a virgin birth in the Hebrew Texts as a need/prophesy of the Messiah. Infact, the Messiah is supposed to be born of both mother and father, not of G-D. Since only through the father is the tribe determined, the mother tells if the child is Jewish, the father tells which tribe the child is from, and the messiah is from the tribe of Judah, and Jesus flesh father, was not from that tribe either. There is also no concept of the trinity in Judaism, and this is what makes Christianity idolatry, because it breaks 1 untiy of G-D in 3 parts. Even if these 3 parts constitute 1 G-D, it is still invalid.
For Christians to say that Jesus will fulfill all these the second time he comes is also invalid, because G-D does not make mistakes, the Messiah only comes once and for all, he doesn't come and then leave only to return to finish the job, this is disagreement with the messianic prophesies that come from G-D himself, and G-D will not disagree with himself, only man can.
The main difference between Judaism and Christianity is based on faith that establishes a covenant, Judaism is a physical covenant, the bris, or circumsicion of forskin and a life dedicated to G-D and His commandments which are for the Jewish people in his Torah. The Jews of today are blood line descendants from the 12 tribes of Israel, unless converted. I though, have a major Jewish family history that goes back to the destruction of the second temple of Jerusalem, meaning through correct genealogy, I can stand correct to say I stood at Mt. Saini and heard G-D speak. The entire Jewish nation heard G-D and witnessed it, therefor its not only based on faith, its based on faith and complete knowledge of the existence, why would we follow silly commandments if not?
The writers of the New Testimate try and shoe horn Jesus into the Hebrew text. There is A LOT more but I won't go further without your permission or if you'd even be curious to hear. I want to end with saying for a Jew to believe Jesus is the messiah is a sin, because it constitutes idolatry and is a violation to the Torahs commandments, which are eternal and which every Jew witnessed at Mt. Saini, HOWEVER, it is NOT idolatry for Christians. It's funny how it works.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:58 pm
Hmm, that was enlightening. I didn't know there were certain criteria to be a Jewish Messiah. Some of them sound kind of harsh (e.g what if some Jews don't want to leave their job and friends to move to Israel? I think the world already knows of the Abrahamic God through knowledge of the Abrahamic religions, so I guess that one's done though, unless "to know God" really means "to convert everyone" or something. ).
From the little I knew about Judaism from being raised Christian (before I converted to Buddhism in my teens) Jesus sounded like a model Jew, so it's interesting reading all this.
Does it define "world peace" any further, by any chance?
When I was growing up I thought world peace sounded like a wonderful idea, but now I think that the only way it would ever happen is if one country took over all the others and ran a strict dictatorship to keep anyone from fighting about anything. Ever. So I'm sort of curious how the Messiah would go about it.
Reading this also made me wonder, if Rabbis need to be married, do they pass the synagogue down through generations or something?
I know part of the reason Christian and Buddhist monks have to be celibate, is because there were problems with priests wanting to give their churches/temples to their sons as property when they died, instead of letting the monks who live there be in charge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:29 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:14 pm
Bokusenou Does it define "world peace" any further, by any chance? When I was growing up I thought world peace sounded like a wonderful idea, but now I think that the only way it would ever happen is if one country took over all the others and ran a strict dictatorship to keep anyone from fighting about anything. Ever. So I'm sort of curious how the Messiah would go about it. Reading this also made me wonder, if Rabbis need to be married, do they pass the synagogue down through generations or something? I know part of the reason Christian and Buddhist monks have to be celibate, is because there were problems with priests wanting to give their churches/temples to their sons as property when they died, instead of letting the monks who live there be in charge.
No, it doesn't really define "world peace" beyond just that. "Peace on Earth" or some such. It doesn't say how the Messiah would go about achieving it or what-not if that's what you're asking.
As the the Rabbis needing to be married dealio, during that time there was a Jewish law (I specify Jewish law because it was not a law of the land) that said all men above a certain age MUST be married. As Rabbis were men, they of course were also married. As to wanting to leave the synagogue to their children. Well, they just couldn't do that. The synagogue did not belong to them, it belonged to God and to the community that worshiped there. It would have been like trying to pass down a rented apartment as inheritance. It's not theirs to give away in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:43 pm
Renkon Root
No, it doesn't really define "world peace" beyond just that. "Peace on Earth" or some such. It doesn't say how the Messiah would go about achieving it or what-not if that's what you're asking.
As the the Rabbis needing to be married dealio, during that time there was a Jewish law (I specify Jewish law because it was not a law of the land) that said all men above a certain age MUST be married. As Rabbis were men, they of course were also married. As to wanting to leave the synagogue to their children. Well, they just couldn't do that. The synagogue did not belong to them, it belonged to God and to the community that worshiped there. It would have been like trying to pass down a rented apartment as inheritance. It's not theirs to give away in the first place.
So, if I'm reading this correctly, Jewish men needed to be married after a certain age, but it didn't matter when women married? Interesting...I didn't know that Jewish people had (have?) laws, besides what the Torah says one should or shouldn't do. Is their any kind of official Jewish stance on what Jesus was, besides "not the Messiah" (not including Jews for Jesus, they confuse me...)? And do they have any explanation for the miracles, for lack of a better term, that he did?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:04 pm
Bokusenou Renkon Root
No, it doesn't really define "world peace" beyond just that. "Peace on Earth" or some such. It doesn't say how the Messiah would go about achieving it or what-not if that's what you're asking.
As the the Rabbis needing to be married dealio, during that time there was a Jewish law (I specify Jewish law because it was not a law of the land) that said all men above a certain age MUST be married. As Rabbis were men, they of course were also married. As to wanting to leave the synagogue to their children. Well, they just couldn't do that. The synagogue did not belong to them, it belonged to God and to the community that worshiped there. It would have been like trying to pass down a rented apartment as inheritance. It's not theirs to give away in the first place.
So, if I'm reading this correctly, Jewish men needed to be married after a certain age, but it didn't matter when women married? Interesting...I didn't know that Jewish people had (have?) laws, besides what the Torah says one should or shouldn't do. Is their any kind of official Jewish stance on what Jesus was, besides "not the Messiah" (not including Jews for Jesus, they confuse me...)? And do they have any explanation for the miracles, for lack of a better term, that he did?
Oh, no! Women had to be married back then too! Of course, none of those laws exist nowadays. The only lasting remnant of them is the old stereotype of parents putting pressure on their children to find "a nice Jewish girl/boy" to marry. I do not believe it was ever written in the Torah. I will have to ask my friend who is studying to become a Rabbi. (Please keep in mind I am only Jewish by culture, I am actually Atheist.)
And the semi-official stance is that Yehoshua ben Joseph was a false prophet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:44 pm
Renkon Root Bokusenou Renkon Root
No, it doesn't really define "world peace" beyond just that. "Peace on Earth" or some such. It doesn't say how the Messiah would go about achieving it or what-not if that's what you're asking.
As the the Rabbis needing to be married dealio, during that time there was a Jewish law (I specify Jewish law because it was not a law of the land) that said all men above a certain age MUST be married. As Rabbis were men, they of course were also married. As to wanting to leave the synagogue to their children. Well, they just couldn't do that. The synagogue did not belong to them, it belonged to God and to the community that worshiped there. It would have been like trying to pass down a rented apartment as inheritance. It's not theirs to give away in the first place.
So, if I'm reading this correctly, Jewish men needed to be married after a certain age, but it didn't matter when women married? Interesting...I didn't know that Jewish people had (have?) laws, besides what the Torah says one should or shouldn't do. Is their any kind of official Jewish stance on what Jesus was, besides "not the Messiah" (not including Jews for Jesus, they confuse me...)? And do they have any explanation for the miracles, for lack of a better term, that he did?
Oh, no! Women had to be married back then too! Of course, none of those laws exist nowadays. The only lasting remnant of them is the old stereotype of parents putting pressure on their children to find "a nice Jewish girl/boy" to marry. I do not believe it was ever written in the Torah. I will have to ask my friend who is studying to become a Rabbi. (Please keep in mind I am only Jewish by culture, I am actually Atheist.)
And the semi-official stance is that Yehoshua ben Joseph was a false prophet.
Ah, OK. Thanks for putting up with all my questions! I find this stuff sort of fascinating, and am wondering why, in all those years of being surrounded by Christianity, I never once thought of seeking out the Jewish argument as to why Jesus is not the Messiah.. I'd be interesting to hear some Christians' thoughts on the topic, since like I said, this isn't exactly the kind of stuff you hear in Sunday School.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:51 pm
Bokusenou I'd be interesting to hear some Christians' thoughts on the topic, since like I said, this isn't exactly the kind of stuff you hear in Sunday School.
Naturally I cannot speak for Christians. But the one time I had this conversation with a Christian in real life she basically told me that Jesus fulfilled a different set of prophecies and they was why he was the Messiah. She then basically listed all the "supernatural" stuff that he did and/or just happened around him.
She cited...
- born of a virgin
- born in Bethlehem
- cured the sick
- walked on water
- was resurrected
Yeah, all that stuff sound cool and all that jazz. But that doesn't really make one a "savior". Especially when you considder that 1.) the world is not "saved" in any sense of the word, and 2.) his followers were persecuted more severely during his life and the first decade of two after his death.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:33 pm
I don't know how much I can contribute to this since I agree that he's not the Messiah. I do regard him as the Christ but the Christ and Messiah are different things from my understanding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:54 pm
Much of Yeshua's mythos is symbolic using external events to describe internal processes and there's a lot, a lot to cover, some I know but a lot I don't know. I can decipher some elements of his mythos if you'd like.
First off, What Christ as savior means? His Greek transliteration of his name, Jesus, means healer. So we have him being described as a rescuer and a healer of the world. But what is the world, if he's the savior how can there be so much suffering in the world if he supposedly saved it? That's because the world is a metaphor for one's perspective. A common mofit in the Christian mythos, orthodox and heretical, is the fallen world. In a practical sense taking in to account that world is a metaphor for perspective, our perspective is mostly skewed concerning the world we interact with. The mythos of the death and resurrection of the Christ describes the process of how this skewed perspective can be rescued. Now there is much more than my time will allow but I hope that gives some things to think about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:24 pm
Thank you, Robbie. That was short but insightful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:12 pm
rmcdra I do regard him as the Christ but the Christ and Messiah are different things from my understanding. Wow, really? I always thought that the Chirstians broke away from the Jews because the they thought Jesus was the Messiah, and the Jews didn't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:33 am
Bokusenou rmcdra I do regard him as the Christ but the Christ and Messiah are different things from my understanding. Wow, really? I always thought that the Chirstians broke away from the Jews because the they thought Jesus was the Messiah, and the Jews didn't. Okay yes the sect of Jews that did regard him as the Messiah broke away but there was more to it then that since the break had more to do with politics and cultural preservation. Christianity from it's inception was never one religion. It would be like a hogposh of many different religions each claiming to come from one teacher Jesus. These many different sects could be classified roughly in three broad catergories: Hebrew Christians, who were strict observers of the Torah, Non-Torah Observing Gentile Christians, who used Jesus' teachings but could care less about Torah observance since the Torah wasn't their laws, and finally the Torah Observing Gentile Christians, who observed (most) Torah laws but did not convert to Judaism via circumsicion. After the Fall of the Second Temple, Judaism reformulated itself to basically preserve thier way of life. First step was closing the Hebrew canon. Before the Fall of the 2nd Temple, Judaism had an open canon and different sect adhered to the Torah and which ever other prophets and writings they accepted. By closing the canon, this kept Gentile Christian writings from becoming mixed with their traditions. Second was to exclude those that held Jesus as prophet since by that time, whatever Jesus taught that could have been consistent with Judaism had long been lost due to all the Gentile converts to this NRM. The Hebrew Christians called him Messiah and regarded him more as a spiritual leader and social reformer. The Gentile Christians called him Christ and saw him as a spiritual leader, social reformer, and possible diety since Gods having children wasn't too far flung in Gentile thought. Jesus as Son of God meant many many different things to the early Christians back than then what it means today.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:06 am
rmcdra Bokusenou rmcdra I do regard him as the Christ but the Christ and Messiah are different things from my understanding. Wow, really? I always thought that the Chirstians broke away from the Jews because the they thought Jesus was the Messiah, and the Jews didn't. Okay yes the sect of Jews that did regard him as the Messiah broke away but there was more to it then that since the break had more to do with politics and cultural preservation. Christianity from it's inception was never one religion. It would be like a hogposh of many different religions each claiming to come from one teacher Jesus. These many different sects could be classified roughly in three broad catergories: Hebrew Christians, who were strict observers of the Torah, Non-Torah Observing Gentile Christians, who used Jesus' teachings but could care less about Torah observance since the Torah wasn't their laws, and finally the Torah Observing Gentile Christians, who observed (most) Torah laws but did not convert to Judaism via circumsicion. After the Fall of the Second Temple, Judaism reformulated itself to basically preserve thier way of life. First step was closing the Hebrew canon. Before the Fall of the 2nd Temple, Judaism had an open canon and different sect adhered to the Torah and which ever other prophets and writings they accepted. By closing the canon, this kept Gentile Christian writings from becoming mixed with their traditions. Second was to exclude those that held Jesus as prophet since by that time, whatever Jesus taught that could have been consistent with Judaism had long been lost due to all the Gentile converts to this NRM. The Hebrew Christians called him Messiah and regarded him more as a spiritual leader and social reformer. The Gentile Christians called him Christ and saw him as a spiritual leader, social reformer, and possible diety since Gods having children wasn't too far flung in Gentile thought. Jesus as Son of God meant many many different things to the early Christians back than then what it means today. Thanks for the detailed reply! Apparently Wikipedia says this: "Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one".[3] It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah. " I didn't know the word Christ came from Hebrew and Greek. So most of the Gentile Christians were Greek at the time? On another note, I came upon the long list of Jewish Messiah claimants eek And here I thought Jesus was the only one. sweatdrop I guess the last one was popular around the early 1990s.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:34 am
Bokusenou On another note, I came upon the long list of Jewish Messiah claimants eek And here I thought Jesus was the only one. sweatdrop I guess the last one was popular around the early 1990s.
Broken link. sad
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
