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 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:32 am
THE DOGMA/DOCTRINE IN THIS THREAD IS NOT OPEN FOR DEBATE. PLEASE DO NOT DISCUSS IT HERE! There are a million other boards dealing with the morality side of homosexuality. Please, don't start a debate. I just want help with my question. One of my Dad's very close friends, Friend A, has recently become a "born again" Christian and has since converted to the Pentecostal church (if I remember). That man has a very close friend, Friend B, (who is also friends with my Dad) who has a daughter that is a lesbian. Since becoming "born again", Friend A has started going to some ecumenical church that is very hostile to homosexuals. Unfortunately, they're one of those fire and brimstone type that say things like "YOU ARE NOT BORN GAY" "YOU MAKE THE CHOICE TO BE GAY" and so on and so forth. Friend A has picked up that attitude and has started yelling at, not talking to, Friend B (we're talking straight up verbal assault). Friend A obviously loves Friend B and wants the best for him and his family, but because of the way he confronts him, Friend A is only driving Friend B away. My Dad is caught in the middle and is trying to get Friend A to try a more "you catch more flies with honey" approach. The problem is, my Dad is a non-practicing Lutheran, and he's just not equipped to go toe to toe with Friend A. So he's turned to me for help. Oh great... sweatdrop I know that the Church's teaching, in a nutshell, is that it's ok to be gay so long as you don't do homosexual acts; that same-sex attraction is an affliction and is a personal trial, a personal cross for a homosexual to bear. In short, they are called to a life of holy chastity. And my Dad completely agrees with our Church's teaching on the subject. Now, how do I explain the WHY we believe that? I'm not very eloquent and I stumble over my words all the time. I can get my Dad to understand the gist of it, but I just don't have the verbal skills to tell him why and then have him relay that information to Friend A. I used to have one website site bookmarked on my old computer that PERFECTLY explained everything. It gave excellent reasoning and Biblical references to back it up, while still coming off very friendly and not at all preechy. The Pope himself couldn't have said it any better. The problem is I haven't been able to find that site again and everything I've been looking up is no where near as articulate. Please, I need help finding a website that is complete, clear and concise, preferably with Biblical references backing it up, so that I can send it to my Dad to send to Friend A. I'm turning to you guys because I know the Catholic Church is the one true faith. We're the only church who has ALL the answers. This is a HUGE deal for me and my family because my Dad is never one to talk, let alone about emotional problems. In addition, he's a staunch Lutheran and frequently takes jabs at the Church, especially since I've decided to be a nun. So the pressure is really on for me. I don't want to blow this opportunity to help him when he's made himself so vulnerable and I don't want my lack of eloquence to poorly reflect the Church. This could potentially lead not only to Friend A's conversion, but possibly even my Dad's. I want him to see the Truth of our faith, or at least come to respect it. I just don't want to screw up this immense opportunity. gonk
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:09 am
You seem to be pretty spot on with regards to Church teaching here. If I could suggest anything it would be to take the arguments made by these ecumenical types and punch holes in them. They're probably going to use biblical texts, for the most part (that's what these kinds of protestants tend to do right?) Luckily all the biblical texts that I know that they would refer to, speak out only against homosexual acts, and not homosexuality itself.
I think the whole "judge not lest ye be judged" works out well here too. So You could give that a go.
Emerald Wings usually has teh best advice for this stuff, though. and she'll probably send all sorts of cool articles to use.
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:14 pm
Dr 42 You seem to be pretty spot on with regards to Church teaching here. If I could suggest anything it would be to take the arguments made by these ecumenical types and punch holes in them. They're probably going to use biblical texts, for the most part (that's what these kinds of protestants tend to do right?) Luckily all the biblical texts that I know that they would refer to, speak out only against homosexual acts, and not homosexuality itself. I think the whole "judge not lest ye be judged" works out well here too. So You could give that a go. Emerald Wings usually has teh best advice for this stuff, though. and she'll probably send all sorts of cool articles to use. lol, well i don't have much off hand, and sorry for not getting on sooner, i hope i'm not to late, but here are a couple articles online i think are very good and may be helpful for you - http://www.catholicapologetics.info/morality/sodomy/homality.htmhttp://www.catholicapologetics.info/morality/sodomy/idolatry.htmand i think it's also important to look at this from the aspect of chastity in general, because homosexual practices are sins of the flesh, and can be refuted simply by explaining why any sin of impurity is wrong, and then likewise why those of the same sex can't be married, and by studying those things, it can be quite easy to refute...even if they refuse to listen or understand, that's really out of your hands, but you can at least use this means to help your father. so here are some articles on the vice of impurity as well - http://www.catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/vice/impurity.htm(i posted a couple new ones on my guild from some of my books - no copyright) http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=21922501http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=21927685i also want to point a few things out in general concerning purity, marriage, and homosexual practices, but i will have to do that tomorrow, because it's getting to late right now, so i hope these articles help for now, and i'll be back later with more info.
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:01 pm
see? I called it. *pats myself on the back*
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Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:55 pm
If I am not mistaken it goes into a particularly the teaching of the 7 sacraments, the major one that goes with gay marriage is marriage is a holy union between man and woman, I believe. More readings and what the church says http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09707a.htm
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:57 pm
Ok, sorry i know i said i'd reply again last week, just been rather busy,
so i just wanted to explain a few things that i hope will help, as i said - on purity, marriage, and homosexual practices,
purity in general of course does not refer only to the virtue of chastity, but that is the particular kind of purity i am going to speak of,
if you look up the word purity or chastity, you may find the definition "freedom from whatever is lewd or salacious", the words to focus on here are "freedom from"...most people tend to think that lust is a freedom, that being able to express yourself sexually is a freedom, or that being able to marry and have a lustful relationship is freedom...but freedom from what exactly? freedom is - "the power to determine action without restraint."...now if you think about this in connection with the definition of "chastity", you might ask yourself, how does lust restrain you? how does sexual activity, which is a natural thing, hinder you from making your own free choices?
well, what does the bible say? - "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, to refrain yourselves from carnal desires which war against the soul" 1 Peter 2:11
"For the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would." Galatians 5:17
since man sinned, the body rebelled against him, and does not obey him, but must now be mortified and chastised and mistrusted, in order to gain control of it,
"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, lust, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is the service of idols." Colossians 3:5
"For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live." Romans 8:13
"But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway." 1 Corinthians 9:27
the only way to gain control of yourself is by denying yourself, because the flesh only desires self gratification, comfort, ease, and to give in is not freedom, it is being subject to the body, whether you want to or not,
true freedom instead consists in doing what is good, because you only do good if you want to, but you commit evils whether you want to or not...
the carnal desires "war against the soul", have you not seen homosexuals struggling with themselves? fighting with themselves, trying to decide what to do, give in to these desires? or try to suppress them? or hide them? or what? it is a battle that takes place between body and soul,
now of course, sex is a good and holy thing, God created it after all, as a means of procreation...but it has it's proper place, it belongs in marriage between husband and wife, only in the natural manner, and only in a manner which leaves open the conception of a child,
those are the requirements laid out, not just by the church, but by God who guides His church,
and of course the church also says that, along with those other things mentioned, sex is also for the mutual show of affection between husband and wife, but that cannot stand alone, it must be in union with the intended purpose of sex,
and this does not only go for sexual relations, it also goes for any pleasure of the body, when you separate the pleasure from the purpose, there are simply going to be natural consequences, such as eating for example, when you eat as you should; the right proportions, the right foods, at a healthy pace, etc, then you are going to benefit from that food and it will serve to strengthen and nourish you, despite how much you enjoy it, and you can enjoy it very much without it being sinful whatsoever, because God wants us to eat for our good so he made eating enjoyable,
but if you instead take eating and separate it from it's intended purpose by eating far to much, or by eating only delicious things that are bad for you, or by eating alot for the pleasure of it and then vomiting so that you can do it again...well clearly these things are going to backfire on you, it's going to have it's natural consequences, you may get fat, or unhealthy, or just plain sick in the head,
and it's not just bad because of the effects it has on you, the natural consequences themselves are not sinful, they are just the result, but what is really sinful is the inordinate love you have placed on food, you loved it so much that you were willing to offend God, turn your back on Him, and risk really harming yourself just for the food you love, you've made food your God, and become a slave to it, even being willing to suffer for it,
and all of this just for pleasure, risking your very soul for some momentary gratification, without any concern for the consequences,
well i could go on about that, but to get to my point, that is the result of separating the pleasure from the God intended purpose, but those natural consequences of the body cannot compare to the great damage and deformity these sins have on the soul, and with sins of the flesh it is far worse than gluttony, gluttony may look worse on the outside, but lust looks far worse on the inside, and has a deeper effect on the mind, body, and heart,
and while lust may not be the worst sin by degree of offending God, it is the worst sin for taking souls to hell, no sin takes more souls to hell than lust,
but what are the effects of separating the pleasure from the purpose in regards to sex? there are far to many for me to list right now, but it's not hard to see what happens to someone who indulges in the sexual pleasures outside of their proper place, and as i said, it has a deep and damaging effect on body, heart, and mind,
not such a deep or noticeable effect on the body, but homosexual practices do wear down on the body, at least for men, which in this case there is no need to get into,
but especially on the heart and mind,
of course you know how these sins lead to perversion of the mind, as we are told - "But the things which proceed out of the mouth, come forth from the heart" Matthew 15:18, because you set your heart on lustful thoughts and desires, so then you often find yourself, willingly or unwillingly, thinking of impure thoughts even at the most inappropriate moments, seeing a sick side to everything, and the more you seek out your lustful desires, the worse your mind becomes, to the point where you don't even see what you're doing as wrong,
and by letting lust into your heart, you cannot invite God there, and you likewise cannot serve God as long as you serve your lustful desires, as we also read - "No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." Luke 16:13
even if you don't feel that you despise God, you show it in your actions, mortal sin says you hate God, and virtue says you love Him, but it can't be both, it's either one or the other, although that's not to say those who sin don't love God, but instead it means, those who choose to sin willingly do not love God.
well, it's getting late so i think i will stop here, i wanted to write more, so maybe i will get on again...although i know it took me over a week just to get this far d: but if you want to ask any other questions regarding this subject, i will be happy to try and help.
ok, that's all for now, take care.
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Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:00 pm
EmeraldWings Ok, sorry i know i said i'd reply again last week, just been rather busy, so i just wanted to explain a few things that i hope will help, as i said - on purity, marriage, and homosexual practices, purity in general of course does not refer only to the virtue of chastity, but that is the particular kind of purity i am going to speak of, if you look up the word purity or chastity, you may find the definition "freedom from whatever is lewd or salacious", the words to focus on here are "freedom from"...most people tend to think that lust is a freedom, that being able to express yourself sexually is a freedom, or that being able to marry and have a lustful relationship is freedom...but freedom from what exactly? freedom is - "the power to determine action without restraint."...now if you think about this in connection with the definition of "chastity", you might ask yourself, how does lust restrain you? how does sexual activity, which is a natural thing, hinder you from making your own free choices? well, what does the bible say? - "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, to refrain yourselves from carnal desires which war against the soul" 1 Peter 2:11 "For the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would." Galatians 5:17 since man sinned, the body rebelled against him, and does not obey him, but must now be mortified and chastised and mistrusted, in order to gain control of it, "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, lust, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is the service of idols." Colossians 3:5 "For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live." Romans 8:13 "But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway." 1 Corinthians 9:27 the only way to gain control of yourself is by denying yourself, because the flesh only desires self gratification, comfort, ease, and to give in is not freedom, it is being subject to the body, whether you want to or not, true freedom instead consists in doing what is good, because you only do good if you want to, but you commit evils whether you want to or not... the carnal desires "war against the soul", have you not seen homosexuals struggling with themselves? fighting with themselves, trying to decide what to do, give in to these desires? or try to suppress them? or hide them? or what? it is a battle that takes place between body and soul, now of course, sex is a good and holy thing, God created it after all, as a means of procreation...but it has it's proper place, it belongs in marriage between husband and wife, only in the natural manner, and only in a manner which leaves open the conception of a child, those are the requirements laid out, not just by the church, but by God who guides His church, and of course the church also says that, along with those other things mentioned, sex is also for the mutual show of affection between husband and wife, but that cannot stand alone, it must be in union with the intended purpose of sex, and this does not only go for sexual relations, it also goes for any pleasure of the body, when you separate the pleasure from the purpose, there are simply going to be natural consequences, such as eating for example, when you eat as you should; the right proportions, the right foods, at a healthy pace, etc, then you are going to benefit from that food and it will serve to strengthen and nourish you, despite how much you enjoy it, and you can enjoy it very much without it being sinful whatsoever, because God wants us to eat for our good so he made eating enjoyable, but if you instead take eating and separate it from it's intended purpose by eating far to much, or by eating only delicious things that are bad for you, or by eating alot for the pleasure of it and then vomiting so that you can do it again...well clearly these things are going to backfire on you, it's going to have it's natural consequences, you may get fat, or unhealthy, or just plain sick in the head, and it's not just bad because of the effects it has on you, the natural consequences themselves are not sinful, they are just the result, but what is really sinful is the inordinate love you have placed on food, you loved it so much that you were willing to offend God, turn your back on Him, and risk really harming yourself just for the food you love, you've made food your God, and become a slave to it, even being willing to suffer for it, and all of this just for pleasure, risking your very soul for some momentary gratification, without any concern for the consequences, well i could go on about that, but to get to my point, that is the result of separating the pleasure from the God intended purpose, but those natural consequences of the body cannot compare to the great damage and deformity these sins have on the soul, and with sins of the flesh it is far worse than gluttony, gluttony may look worse on the outside, but lust looks far worse on the inside, and has a deeper effect on the mind, body, and heart, and while lust may not be the worst sin by degree of offending God, it is the worst sin for taking souls to hell, no sin takes more souls to hell than lust, but what are the effects of separating the pleasure from the purpose in regards to sex? there are far to many for me to list right now, but it's not hard to see what happens to someone who indulges in the sexual pleasures outside of their proper place, and as i said, it has a deep and damaging effect on body, heart, and mind, not such a deep or noticeable effect on the body, but homosexual practices do wear down on the body, at least for men, which in this case there is no need to get into, but especially on the heart and mind, of course you know how these sins lead to perversion of the mind, as we are told - "But the things which proceed out of the mouth, come forth from the heart" Matthew 15:18, because you set your heart on lustful thoughts and desires, so then you often find yourself, willingly or unwillingly, thinking of impure thoughts even at the most inappropriate moments, seeing a sick side to everything, and the more you seek out your lustful desires, the worse your mind becomes, to the point where you don't even see what you're doing as wrong, and by letting lust into your heart, you cannot invite God there, and you likewise cannot serve God as long as you serve your lustful desires, as we also read - "No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." Luke 16:13 even if you don't feel that you despise God, you show it in your actions, mortal sin says you hate God, and virtue says you love Him, but it can't be both, it's either one or the other, although that's not to say those who sin don't love God, but instead it means, those who choose to sin willingly do not love God. well, it's getting late so i think i will stop here, i wanted to write more, so maybe i will get on again...although i know it took me over a week just to get this far d: but if you want to ask any other questions regarding this subject, i will be happy to try and help. ok, that's all for now, take care.
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:55 pm
If I can add to what Emerald said about marriage.
We can see that something is thriving when it is growing, it's what living things do when they have the nutrients they need.
The point here is that we can see that a family is thriving when it is growing. however it needs to grow from something, namely marriage, to establish the family in the first place. If you don't establish the family, then what grows, if it grows at all, is a sort of pseudo-family, it isn't really a family insofar as it has no secure basis, in the end it's just two people with genetic offspring; whereas with a marriage there's a spiritual union between the two people. In the end, what we wind up with is something that's alot like a fraction with a zero for a denominator, where the numerator looks like it makes sense and seems like every other numerator in terms of its validity but with the denominator the whole thing is not a thing at all.
With respect to homosexuality, if something can't possibly grow, then it cannot possibly be a thriving family, and if it is not possibly a thriving family, then it cannot possibly be based on marriage, which demands thriving families. It's the marriage and its implications that's the real issue, anything else is just the vomit of radicals.
Of course all that might just be a bunch of gibberish that doesn't mean anything, but it's the mental image I use whenever I think of marriage.
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