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 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:26 pm
So my grandfather came over to visit my family in a long time. He's on his last legs so to speak since he's 90 years old. He fought in WW2. He signed up after college when pearl harbor happened and went into the navy. My grandfather fought in some of the famous naval battles with the Japanese. Okay, onto the story. When my grandfather visited we talked and talked, then he reminded us all of August 6th. I never thought of the atomic bomb much until my grandfather told us the story last Monday. He converted to Quakerism and is now very much against war, but we make jokes since he knows my love of military history. He doesn't judge me for being a hawk. This isn't about advice, but now that August 6th is coming closer, I feel guilty for what happened. My grandfather also knows I'm a weeaboo. I believe my love of Japan is making me feel guilty along with my sympathetic views towards my grandfather. He's very liberal and he accepts me still, so I'm happy about that.
Here's the question: have you ever felt guilty for something your country has done? What I mean is; has a government policy ever made feel guilty about your national pride?
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:05 pm
I feel guilty a lot of the time when I consider my country's history. Where do I begin? Ireland? India? Black Slavery? The fact we invented concentration camps? The war with the zulus?
Fortunately, I remember other things: Being one of the first (if not the first) to abolish slavry, the democracy spead as the empire depleted, the stands made against the Nazis in WW2, etc.
I can go on for good or bad but considering it overall - I have plenty to love and hate of my own country and of all countries. It's not really something I put in one direction or another by the end of my reasonings. confused
But to answer your question, well - yes. Anyone who never feels et for a decision made by their country is a patriot in dangerous extremity. But guilt? Eh, more difficult, I may be the product of my forebears but I am not their decisions. To be all metaphors and s**t: Is the apple accountable for the tree on which it grew?
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:23 am
I feel bad all the time for the actions the government of my country has done. But, I am of a school of thought in which the government does not accurately map the preferences of the voting population. Therefore, the actions the government takes does not reflect the actions that "the country" takes.
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:37 am
A Really Bad Idea I feel guilty a lot of the time when I consider my country's history. Where do I begin? Ireland? India? Black Slavery? The fact we invented concentration camps? The war with the zulus? Fortunately, I remember other things: Being one of the first (if not the first) to abolish slavry, the democracy spead as the empire depleted, the stands made against the Nazis in WW2, etc. I can go on for good or bad but considering it overall - I have plenty to love and hate of my own country and of all countries. It's not really something I put in one direction or another by the end of my reasonings. confused But to answer your question, well - yes. Anyone who never feels et for a decision made by their country is a patriot in dangerous extremity. But guilt? Eh, more difficult, I may be the product of my forebears but I am not their decisions. To be all metaphors and s**t: Is the apple accountable for the tree on which it grew? Would demanding reparations from Germany and stripping Germany of land be added to the list? Edit: I know that's a smug statement, just I felt I had to say it.
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:20 am
Nuclear weapons are interesting. A really interesting thing and the largest science project undertaken by the United States government. I don't mean in the use military either, but in civilian sector it effected as well.
As for feeling bad, I don't. The effects on humans to a region is interesting, not to mention the rebuilding and social effects. Truly interesting.
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:43 am
Steven Hawkings Would demanding reparations from Germany and stripping Germany of land be added to the list? Edit: I know that's a smug statement, just I felt I had to say it. No, because Clemenceau was the bigger d**k in that room and everyone except him walked out saying "this will lead to another war". rolleyes Blaming a Frenchman, how English am I?
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:45 am
Steven Hawkings Nuclear weapons are interesting. A really interesting thing and the largest science project undertaken by the United States government. I don't mean in the use military either, but in civilian sector it effected as well. As for feeling bad, I don't. The effects on humans to a region is interesting, not to mention the rebuilding and social effects. Truly interesting. I like the current status of Japanese cities now since they were rebuilt from WW2 damage. I like nuclear engineering as much as I like astrophysics. But when I always watch the August 8th ceremony where they light candles in paper boats and let them float out to sea, I go, "We're ******** dicks to people it's so ridicules." But I'm not guilt tripping to the point where I want our foreign policy to change. If I were president and I invaded Iran, I would probably go "LilPokPoki hates me even more now. I suck so much." I wouldn't stop the invasion, but I would probably snap to the point where I would contact her and feel worthless in front of her.
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:49 am
Steven Hawkings A Really Bad Idea I feel guilty a lot of the time when I consider my country's history. Where do I begin? Ireland? India? Black Slavery? The fact we invented concentration camps? The war with the zulus? Fortunately, I remember other things: Being one of the first (if not the first) to abolish slavry, the democracy spead as the empire depleted, the stands made against the Nazis in WW2, etc. I can go on for good or bad but considering it overall - I have plenty to love and hate of my own country and of all countries. It's not really something I put in one direction or another by the end of my reasonings. confused But to answer your question, well - yes. Anyone who never feels et for a decision made by their country is a patriot in dangerous extremity. But guilt? Eh, more difficult, I may be the product of my forebears but I am not their decisions. To be all metaphors and s**t: Is the apple accountable for the tree on which it grew? Would demanding reparations from Germany and stripping Germany of land be added to the list? Edit: I know that's a smug statement, just I felt I had to say it. Yes. I feel guilty for all the bad things we've done when I learn about them, but I will always protect the establishment. That sounds pretty stupid...
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:00 pm
First World War was screwed up in so many ways.
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:04 pm
A Really Bad Idea Steven Hawkings Would demanding reparations from Germany and stripping Germany of land be added to the list? Edit: I know that's a smug statement, just I felt I had to say it. No, because Clemenceau was the bigger d**k in that room and everyone except him walked out saying "this will lead to another war". rolleyes Blaming a Frenchman, how English am I? Well after all that happened after World War I, still ended in Germany paying reparations, which I find the most messed up. I'm sure you have read about the debt repayment finally being meet of last year. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11442892 Lord Cunliffe and John Maynard Keynes did not help by suggesting that repayment can be meet that did influence the decision . Lord Cunliffe gave a estimate of eight times the national GDP before the war for Germany then suggested he over did it but could see five times as a figure. Between The Council of Four the saner ones was Lloyd George, Vittorio Emanuele Orlando and somewhat Woodrow Wilson. But Woodrow Wilson should have let Robert Lansing handle it.
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:10 pm
Wendigo First World War was screwed up in so many ways. Well it was the first of many things in war. Along with the last of many things. Napoleonic tactics combined with the new weapons as machine guns and various chemical weapons also the trenches. I find the war in Africa much crazier then Europe within respects to how fast the battles were.
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:17 pm
Steven Hawkings Well after all that happened after World War I, still ended in Germany paying reparations, which I find the most messed up. I'm sure you have read about the debt repayment finally being meet of last year. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11442892 Lord Cunliffe and John Maynard Keynes did not help by suggesting that repayment can be meet that did influence the decision . Lord Cunliffe gave a estimate of eight times the national GDP before the war for Germany then suggested he over did it but could see five times as a figure. Between The Council of Four the saner ones was Lloyd George, Vittorio Emanuele Orlando and somewhat Woodrow Wilson. But Woodrow Wilson should have let Robert Lansing handle it. I'm aware. I just needed an excuse to blame the French. Yet, there is a grain of truth to that statement. Heck, Clemenceau wanted Germany divided into 12 smaller states. But my gripes with him, aside - you're right, there was little sanity in the treaty by almost every party. It was stupidly punitive and as I recall from studying it, David Lloyd George was mostly upset because he thought it'd make an impoverished Germany and thought an impoverished Germany would become Communist. Good, or bad - he was wrong in that respect yet irrefutably unfortunately, it gave opportunity to Hitler. Although, I'm not quite sure on the bolded - the article you linked claims Keynes said it couldn't be repaid.
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:56 pm
Aw thanks guys.
Wait, this isn't birthday well-wishing?
Oh. sad
But yeah, US was an a*****e throughout history. I have a hard time feeling guilty for anything pre WW2, though. People are very nasty to each other given the opportunity (and if enough is at stake). I'm not going to be able to change that.
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:00 pm
A Really Bad Idea Steven Hawkings Well after all that happened after World War I, still ended in Germany paying reparations, which I find the most messed up. I'm sure you have read about the debt repayment finally being meet of last year. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11442892 Lord Cunliffe and John Maynard Keynes did not help by suggesting that repayment can be meet that did influence the decision . Lord Cunliffe gave a estimate of eight times the national GDP before the war for Germany then suggested he over did it but could see five times as a figure. Between The Council of Four the saner ones was Lloyd George, Vittorio Emanuele Orlando and somewhat Woodrow Wilson. But Woodrow Wilson should have let Robert Lansing handle it. I'm aware. I just needed an excuse to blame the French. Yet, there is a grain of truth to that statement. Heck, Clemenceau wanted Germany divided into 12 smaller states. But my gripes with him, aside - you're right, there was little sanity in the treaty by almost every party. It was stupidly punitive and as I recall from studying it, David Lloyd George was mostly upset because he thought it'd make an impoverished Germany and thought an impoverished Germany would become Communist. Good, or bad - he was wrong in that respect yet irrefutably unfortunately, it gave opportunity to Hitler. Although, I'm not quite sure on the bolded - the article you linked claims Keynes said it couldn't be repaid. John Maynard Keynes did not support anything of that nature what he supported cited from one of the best biography I have read of him. He suggested a more smaller figure of £3,000 million or £2,000 million at the lowest. It may have been my writing by putting two different men of very different views of respiration within the same paragraph, but he never supported bankrupting Germany or stripping lands away from them. I'm sorry if I gave that impression from my writing. What I have against him was even supporting it by giving a figure. That is why I cited John Maynard Keynes , though his demands is something that can be meet without causing the hassles as it did. Lord Sumner and Lord Cunliffe apposed John Maynard Keynes for giving such a small figure to leaner repayments to the holdings of Germany's colonies and regions of the Reich. Lord Sumner and Lord Cunliffe both made sure that John Maynard Keynes was excluded from any higher level talks to silencing him through using lobbying through back channels on decision makers.
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:49 am
Steven Hawkings http://books.google.com/books/about/John_Maynard_Keynes_1883_1946.html?id=IL6SAQAACAAJ John Maynard Keynes did not support anything of that nature what he supported cited from one of the best biography I have read of him. He suggested a more smaller figure of £3,000 million or £2,000 million at the lowest. It may have been my writing by putting two different men of very different views of respiration within the same paragraph, but he never supported bankrupting Germany or stripping lands away from them. I'm sorry if I gave that impression from my writing. What I have against him was even supporting it by giving a figure. That is why I cited John Maynard Keynes , though his demands is something that can be meet without causing the hassles as it did. Lord Sumner and Lord Cunliffe apposed John Maynard Keynes for giving such a small figure to leaner repayments to the holdings of Germany's colonies and regions of the Reich. Lord Sumner and Lord Cunliffe both made sure that John Maynard Keynes was excluded from any higher level talks to silencing him through using lobbying through back channels on decision makers. Ahh, fair enough. Although to a degree, reparation sums being paid (ignoring price and assuming a reasonable one) did make some sense given the massive damage done to the parts of France in which WW1 was fought. It needed to be paid for somehow. Otherwise, pretty much sucks about the lobbying against Keynes. He was otherwise respected, however - wasn't he? So I'm frankly amazed he was kept out.
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