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Reply Mythology: Deities and the Myths
Ragnarock-What is it, what are your thoughts-key signs ect

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Loona Wynd
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:02 am


So this thread came about out of response to the Loki thread. We started a discussion about Loki's role in the myths and it ultimatly lead to a discussion on Ragnarock. So I figured it was time to start a new discussion on Ragnarock.

Ragnarock as described in the Germanic myths is outlined at the very end of the Eddic poem Voluspa. That same poem describes the Germanic creation myths. So we have creation, destruction, and rebirth in the same poem, which means Ragnarock is a crucial event.

What are your thoughts on Ragnarock?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:25 am


Hello again XD I'm going to try to shorten my confusion on Ragnarok that i wrote in the previous thread.

I don't understand Ragnarok...

While to the people of this time it makes sense to have an ending to the gods and the birth of a new world, I don't understand it in the context of how it plays for the gods. They knew what was going to happen, the signs to when it would begin, the key players and the end, but I don't see how that works. If they new that there would be an end, then whatever. But to know so much seems so weird. Thor's obsession with killing Jurmundgandr makes sense if you know who is going to kills you while also hoping you can kill him before he does. And by knowing it, and maybe even changing it wouldn't they just be accomplishing a fate anyway/

How could one function in such a reality. It makes me think of Oedipus and his fate. He ran to try not to fulfill the prophecy yet ends up doing so anyway. By having the gods know are they forcing the events to happen... And in that case, a god like Loki, who courts chaos like a lover, would see this reality as a chance to do whatever because no matter what happens this is going to be the fate and his place will be against the Aesir. Yet... why like this. Why Loki vs Odin, blood brother for so long, maybe even before the Aesir/Vanir war. Ok so Loki had some very crazy kids, maybe we should watch them to make sure nothing bad happens. Oh, Baldr is dead, yet he knew he was going to die. Yet when everything is over he comes back to life and so does the brother that killed him...

So, yes... Very confused by it.

MaenadMagic


CalledTheRaven

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:53 am


So first off, Ragnarok has no c in it. More later. Things to do now.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:23 pm


CalledTheRaven
So first off, Ragnarok has no c in it. More later. Things to do now.
I've seen it spelt both ways.... sweatdrop Any way I thought it would be best to bring Ragnarok to it's own thread and keep the Loki thread focused on experiences with Loki, worship f Loki and the lore. Ragnarok is basically an event that involves nearly every being in the Germanic mythos so it deserves it's own thread.

I actually look forward to your thoughts on this matter.

It seems that there are a lot of Germanic pagans on Gaia, more than other types. You practice a more recon style path right?

Loona Wynd
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CalledTheRaven

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:10 pm


Loona Wynd
CalledTheRaven
So first off, Ragnarok has no c in it. More later. Things to do now.
I've seen it spelt both ways.... sweatdrop Any way I thought it would be best to bring Ragnarok to it's own thread and keep the Loki thread focused on experiences with Loki, worship f Loki and the lore. Ragnarok is basically an event that involves nearly every being in the Germanic mythos so it deserves it's own thread.

I actually look forward to your thoughts on this matter.

It seems that there are a lot of Germanic pagans on Gaia, more than other types. You practice a more recon style path right?
that's a little odd because I've never seen it spelled with a c before. Ah well. Let me organize my thoughts better. Ragnarok is one of those things that everyone has a different take on.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:04 am


All right so a few thoughts on Ragnarok. First I'll try to address some of Howstar's questions and then I'll present a few thoughts and questions on the nature of Ragnarok.

So Howl, you're confused about how knowing about Ragnarok would effect the Gods and how some might try to change the course of it and others work towards it. Well, first off, they're given bits and pieces. They don't know all the details of the when and such so it could essentially happen at any time (some even claim it already has happened but more on that later) so that frees things up a bit. I also don't believe the explanation that some give of the Gods trying to circumvent or thwart their eventual end. You mentioned Thor and his antagonism with Jormundgandr specifically so let's look at that for an example. Thor may or may not know the details of the Ragnorok as Odinn does since the prophetess in the Voluspa was speaking to Odinn specifically and he may not have shared that knowledge. This actually makes a lot of sense to me because if the Gods in general knew about it and/or were trying to circumvent it, why would they keep doing things that weaken them for the fight, like Freyr giving away his sword so he has to fight with a stag horn. But getting back to Thor, even if he did know, he may not have cared. Through my both my study of the lore and my personal interactions with him, I've found Thor to be a more in the moment type. I think he dislikes Jormundgandr because the serpent is large, dangerous, destructive, and unbound. This makes him one of the dangerous things that it is Thor's job to destroy in order to protect the world.

Now for some thoughts on Odinn in all of this. The Allfather is a pragmatic sort. He does what is necessary for the greater gain, regardless of the price to himself (sacrificing himself to himself to gain the runes, trading his eye for the wisdom of Mimir's well), so why would he try to avert the Ragnarok? Only to prevent his own death? Bah! He is not such a coward. Eventually all things must change and without destruction then nothing new can ever come to be.

For some thoughts on Loki's part in all this, see this linkthis link which I have posed before in the thread on Himself.

* * *

Now to address the Ragnarok itself. I mean just what is it even? Well first let's all remember that the tale doesn't end with the deaths of the Gods and their opponents. Not all life is destroyed and not all the Gods die. Some are even reborn. Many of the Gods have children who step into their roles after the battle and Balder is released from Hel's realm to take his father's throne. (Actually all the inhabitants of Hel are loosed and no one ever mentions where they get to, or what happens to all the battle slain the Odinn brings to the fight. I mean, they're already dead so are they reborn after the battle or do they go to some higher level of afterlife? And just where does a dead God go?) And of course the man and the woman who were hiding in the branches of the world tree come down to rebuild the world from the mortal end of things.

Now some folks claim that the Ragnarok has already happens and will happen again, that it is a cycle of destruction and renewal and as the new generation of Gods claim their fathers' places, they essentially become them.

Some claim that it has already happened in a more metaphorical manner; that the deaths of the Gods and the survival of humans, hidden through the destruction, only to re-emerge when the time was right represents the destruction of Heathenry (and paleopaganism in general) by Christianity and the re-emergence of the Gods and the old ways into the modern world. Just enough of a seed left to build on.

Some believe it is entirely literal and yet to come, some that it's only a possibility or that the Volva was lying. Still others say that the story is too mangled by time and the writer's revisionism to pick the actual heathen beliefs about the end of the world (if any such existed) out of what remains.

CalledTheRaven

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MaenadMagic

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:02 pm


The link I read before when you posted it on the previous thread. I actually found it to be really interesting though I have no sources to help my understanding as I am very much a novice in all of this (but that's why I'm questioning everything XD). Your descriptions fill some of the blank spots I have so thank you for that. Though even reading it still has me spinning in circles and I feel that for such an event, there's not a lot of info to go on of. Kind of like when you wrote,

Quote:
(Actually all the inhabitants of Hel are loosed and no one ever mentions where they get to, or what happens to all the battle slain the Odinn brings to the fight. I mean, they're already dead so are they reborn after the battle or do they go to some higher level of afterlife? And just where does a dead God go?)


My two questions on this would be how does one incorporate such a large event into ritual or honoring and what would you say is the best source to read on Ragnarok?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:58 pm


howlstar32
My two questions on this would be how does one incorporate such a large event into ritual or honoring and what would you say is the best source to read on Ragnarok?
How would one incorporate Ragnarok into ritual? I don't know. To be honest I wouldn't personally. I don't see that it has a lot of bearing on practice. Just because something is a part of the mythology and cosmology of a belief system doesn't mean it has to be part of the ritual observances. And just how would you honor a theoretical end of the world that may or may not have already happened anyway? For example, look at the Christian idea of the Rapture. There are many who believe fervently in it but they don't really have ritual practices about it or masses themed on it. Maybe I'm just not really understanding the question.

If you want to read the standard accounts of the event, try picking up some translations of the Eddas. Or hell, check out the free copies at sacred-texts.com. The section you want in the Poetic Edda is the Voluspa (or Voluspo in this version) and in the Prose Edda, you'll find the Ragnarok stuff near the end of the Gylfaginning.

Remember that these sources are not the "100% UNDISPUTED WORD!!". The Prose Edda was written down by a Christian politician and scholar, over 200 years after his country converted. He starts the whole thing off with a bunch of blather about how the Norse Gods weren't really Gods, just survivors of Ancient Troy who coned the ignorant Germanics and Norse into believing they were Gods by dint of their amazing Trojanness. It's also likely that he gave the myths and stories he was recording a more organized and connected nature than they actually had. And while material in the Poetic Edda is likely several hundred years older, it's fragmentary. This is one of the difficulties of following any sort of reconstructionist path. Your source material is often fragmentary and contradictory due to the ravages of time, religious cleansing, and political convenience.

If you were asking more for books that study and discuss the meanings and manner of the Ragnarok then I'm sorry, I can't think of any off the top of my head and am currently involved in a learning situation where I'm not allowed to look one up.

CalledTheRaven

Dapper Lunatic

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Mythology: Deities and the Myths

 
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