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I am tired of hearing people saying "Zelos sucks a**, and Lloyd can beat him." So I am here to tell you MY reasons as to why Zelos could kick Lloyd's pansy a**. And why Kratos lost to Lloyd in the first place (that will be done later)

Debate with me as you will, I love a good debate. (quotes Zelos) (quotes Lloyd)

"Come and get some!"
"Come on, bring it!"

Okay, let me begin...

HOW ZELOS COULD KICK LLOYD'S a**

I doubt any of the two would hold back, especially not Zelos (even if he has nothing to live for, maybe Seles), and definatly not Lloyd (he has to protect Colette and save the world). But Zelos is an angel, and Lloyd is a Human (with an exspehere). ANGEL vs. HUMAN, go figure. We all know what would win in a battle like that.

Some people might say: "Hey, Lloyd beat Kratos in his angel form!" I will explain a reason as to why Lloyd would have lost.

Now, back to Z vs L. We all know that Zelos was killed (it would be gay if you couldn't beat him). But check out the odds in that battle.

4 against 1.

Even GNOME said that was "cheap". I think so too. It may not be a duel, but 4 against 1? That's pretty unfair. And look at who you have on your team in the first place to fight:

-A Ninja who can call forth the powerful Summons, which could negate all of a person's elemental attacks, and hit them with their Elemental weakness.

-A fighter who has trained himself to fight with his feet, rather than his hands. He also doubles as a healer.

-A 'young girl' who weilds a big ax, and who's special attack (Hi-ougi) could tear the most powerful to shreads.

-A kid mage who has mastered the most strongest elemental magic attack, and has Indignation Judgment and Meteor Storm.

-A young girl who can attack from near or far, and has many angel attacks, including the stat raising/enemy attacking Holy Judgment. Plus an attack that heals all pary memebers completly and also attacks all the enemies on the map.

-A woman who is a master at the healing arts, her special attack heals everyone completly, and can easily resurrect a fallen memeber.

Now pick 3 out of those people and add Lloyd. Is that fair?

"Ok, all you have given me are stats of everyone on their team. So how exactly can Zelos win?"

Here, let me give you this.

1) Give Zelos his Shining Bind, Judgement and Divine Judgement.
2) Bump his HP, TP, STR, SKI, ACC, SPD, and all his other stats back to what they where in the PS2/GC Japanese version in MANIA MODE.
3) Make the fight One on One, Zelos vs Lloyd.
4) Take away Lloyd's abbility to use items
5) Take away Lloyd's Rising Falcon, this attack freaking dodges EVERYTHING. It's cheap (I love it).
6) Supply both fighters with their Best Swords. Lloyd with his Devil Arms, Kusanagi (I think its called) or his Ninja Blade. While Zelos with his Devil Arms or Last Fencer.

Do all that, and I gurantee Lloyd would lose. I am not talking about YOU controlling Lloyd, I mean him by himself.

hmm...well, Lloyd is most definitly stronger than the two of them. i'm sorry to say, but he really is. Lloyd is probably stronger because he is the main character, his exsphere is probably a lot more special than anyone's, and he has angelic blood in him.

so...Lloyd is technically half-angel. but, anyways, here are my reasons why Lloyd can beat Kratos/Zelos:

1. in the duel, Kratos usually loses against Lloyd. the one in the forest.
2. Lloyd never goes easy
3. the computer/game purposely makes the character a lot stronger and tougher. if Lloyd were to battle ANYONE by himself with the CPU's bonus to the opponent, then he would never win. that's why they have you fight in a party. the opponenet is much stronger than when you get that person in your party.
4. Lloyd already comes with better stats than Zelos/Kratos
5. i have never played as Lloyd or Zelos/Kratos (my sister does), but when i battled Seles, and both were at the same level, Lloyd won, and Zelos/Kratos lost
6. Lloyd has stronger techinques. he can also use the Eternal Sword to fight, and use Falcon's Crest

those are my reasons. you may argue, but i personally do not care for the magic swordmen in ToS. i usually like mages. i think it's just my sister's pro-ness at Lloyd, but oh well. these reasons are debatable, yes? reasonable too, yes?

Indeed, your reasons are true. But it's really Video Game based. Sure, it is far fetched to say in a REAL battle, who would win.
I guess what I am saying now is confusing (hell, I hope not XD). But I was saying if the fight wasn't Video Game wise and done in 'real life', Lloyd would most likely lose.

Number 2, 4 and 6 fits what I am saying.

Lloyd's Falcon's Crest. I am not sure if that is stronger than Zelos' Divine Judgement. It might as well be, since it is a Hi-ougi and it is one of his most powerful Techs.
But as far as I know, Zelos can use his Divine Judgment any time *goes to check*. No wait, only in overlimit. And it takes 150 TP. I forgot how much Falcon's Crest takes, but Lloyd can only use that when he is low on health and some other requirements I am too lazy to list. And considering Lloyd must be an archtype, their magic resistance should be all right. Not too good, not too bad. I forgot how much damage Divine Judgment/Shining Bind usually cost in the first place.

Your reason, number 1. Kratos' stats were way bumped down, especially his HP.
Hp: 12,000
Tp: 1400
From his
Hp: 22,500
Tp: 1500

Besides his TP dropping around 1000, there is a major difference in his HP. I'm not sure about STR and stats like that, but they were probably bumped down too. Lloyd also had Rising Falcon, which can dogde almost anything. Besides Indig. Judgment and a few others.

NUMBER 2: Indeed, Lloyd never goes easy. I can give him that.

NUMBER 3: Exactly.

NUMBER 4: Well, he is your first character. Zelos/Kratos are more of the well rounded characters. They have healing, magic and melee attacks. While Lloyd has an advantage in the Speed and Melee attack department.

NUMBER 5: I never play as Lloyd, he's reserved for my brother. I only play as Kratos/Zelos, and Sheena. Sometimes Genis. I tried Zelos in the Colloseum against his sister, and he didn't even MAKE it to her *rolls eyes*. So, so sad. Zelos is a little slower, and his physical attacks can't compare to Lloyd's own. *cries* DAMN YOU SELES!

NUMBER 6: Well, the E. Sword isn't his strongest. It's the Kusanagi Blade (or whatever), the Ninja Blade or his Devil Arms. He does has an obvious advantagde with his E. Sword.

Thank you for your reasons! Very interesting too *nods* And remember everyone else, I. DO. NOT. HATE. LLOYD!
AND Sorry if I sound like an annoying b***h, I was mad when I made this thread *some b***h pissed me off at school. One day, I'll strangle her with my belt*

Lloyd can use the Eternal Sword any time after he uses Falcon Crest. i think Lloyd would be able to beat any of them. if he didn't, then there would be 0 game. no game...well, i guess you can conclude from there.

plus...when Kratos/Zelos are trying to heal themselves, Lloyd can interrupt there spell casting. also, Lloyd is much quicker than Zelos or Kratos. so there! he already comes with better stats, anyway...(as i've said) and anyway...Lloyd can use his angel abilities too! hmph. XD

Kratos cannot beat Lloyd for beans. the game pretty much made it so that Lloyd would beat Kratos. i mean...Kratos seems much easier than before during the duel.

Sometimes, it takes several hits to inturupt a healing spell, or any spell for that matter. All Zelos or Kratos have to do is stun Lloyd with a Lightning/Ground attack, like Super Lightning Blade or Lightning, teleport away from him, and heal. They can heal pretty fast too, especially if they have 2 items equipped that decrease spell casting time.

And with all that spining Zelos does, I find it hard to believe you can hit him 100% of the time. He...scares me very much.

yeah, but Lloyd can do the "jump-back" thing, or simply dodge Super Lightning-Blade. also, dodging spells is quite easy. Zelos is very easy to hit. trust me. i've battled him twice already. he's so freakin' easy. let me test this by commanding everyone to hold position. anyway, Lloyd can use items.

I've beat Zelos countless of times...T.T that thought makes me tear.

True, Super L-Blade is easy to dogde, but how many percent of the time can you dogde it? You have to get hit at least once, since S. L-blade comes out at you pretty fast. And there's no way Lloyd could dogde Divine Judgement or Shining Bind...I don't even think Rising Falcon or any Tempest techs can help him either.

Almost all of the angels are easy to hit, until they try to act cool and disappear and reappear somewhere else to cast Judgment.

If it was a real duel, just like Sheena vs Kuchin, no one is allowed to use items. Which makes it a bit unfair for Lloyd, since Zelos can heal himself. Eh, it sucks not to double as a healer, doesn't it my red-wearing hunnie?

You try that out too, and tell me the results. I'm too lazy to whip out Symphonia XD

heh. to defend yourself and nullify partial damage against angelic stuff, use guardian/force field/etc

L_F: That only protects you from half of the damage. And Gaurdian/Force Field/Earthly Protection/Bastion etc. takes up some great amout of TP. And it takes timing too (but I use it pretty good), sooner or later, Lloyd will waste his TP. Unless he has a Faire Ring that gives you back some percent of your TP back, and also the other item that allows you to not was 1/2 of your TP.