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 Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:56 pm
While i read through the topic about homosexuality, i saw this comment: immanuelkant And the genetic mutation would also imply that it was beyone what God created and had mutated from the sinful and cursed creation after the fall. I don't think you want to go that route. If homosexuality is a mutation or a genetic mistake then it is not from God. Normally i do not care to talk about myself in message boards, but this gives rise to a question i think is rather important. Namely, how do transgendered people fit into God's view? I have had to deal with this question quite often because of what i am, but most people seem to ignore it. As a transgendered person, i do not fall into either category of male or female. Rather, a transgendered person is some mixture of both. Does this mean i can have a relationship with neither males nor females, as it would be some form of homosexuality? Since i am neither male nor female, do i even fit into God's categories, or am i some reject doomed to go to hell for how i was born? That quote says genetic mutations are not from God. That would mean i am not from God. I have read the entire Bible, and i have never found anything that would apply to me. This seems to say i am a reject in God's eyes. So, my question is this. How do God's laws apply to transgendered people, and what options exist for said people? Are we cursed, doomed from birth? As much as i would like to think not, i see no basis for such hopes.
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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:15 pm
I honestly don't know how to answer your questions. I know that you are not a reject and that you are accepted by God. I don't really know how or in what way, and I don't know where you would fall in the scheme of genders.
What I meant about genetic mutations was that they are not something that were originally in God's design. God did not create transgender mutations. God did not create sickle cell anemia. That does not mean that God did not create you. What that means is that because of the Fall and the curse put on mankind because of our sinfulness, these mutations do happen. You are still accepted by God even if you've been hurt and deformed beyond your own control. For that matter, God never intended for anyone to have down syndrome, but they still do and He still accepts them.
Only God can tell you your gender. God made us male and female, and although you may have mutations that seem otherwise, down in your core you are still one or the other. That's the best way I can answer you... I just hope that it's good enough. I'm sorry if it doesn't seem right or fair or kind to you... but it's all I know to say.
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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:36 pm
I came to terms with myself a long time ago. The reason i made this topic is because there seems to be no place in Christianity for transgendered people. The Bible seems to ignore this form of life, though that is understandable (i suppose it may not have been an issue back then).
Even if we accept God's love and acceptance for transgendered people, there is still a monumental question. What, if any, relationship is a transgendered person allowed to have in God's eyes? In a strict sense, the Bible seems to say that a transgendered person cannot faithfully serve God. While this is not a pressing concern for me at this time, i believe it is an important topic for Christianity to study.
Also, your response seems odd to me. You say that God made us male or female exclusively. Scientifically speaking, a transgendered person is not one or the other. That would seem to mean that a transgendered person would have some matter of choice as to which gender (s)he is. If that is so, do you accept GID (gender identity disorder) as being a true condition?
If we accept GID as being a true condition, then it would mean it is possible for a male to be in a female's body. At that point, it becomes nearly impossible to condemn homosexuality. What do you think about that?
As for me, i know what i am. I also know what i believe and what i feel. I have faced some persecution from Christians, but i do not hold that against Christianity as a whole. Unfortunately, i can see no way to reconcile what i am with Christian teachings.
I was raised as a Lutheran, and i do still believe in God. However, i think it would be irresponsible for me to say i am a Christian until this topic reaches some resolution. Until then, i will always be looking and learning, and perhaps i will find some answer.
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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:04 pm
God loves all his children and He certainly loves you.
There is no mention of it in the bible, because they didn't know about it and/or understand it.
I think this quote sums it up well
"The authors of the Bible are authorities in matters of faith. They can be trusted when they talk about God. But they should not be considered the final authorities on sexual orientation any more than they are the final authorities on space travel, gravity, or the Internet."
That specific quote is about homosexuality, but it applies to your situation as well.
Anyone is a Christian if they accept Christ as their savior, and your gender does not have anything to do with it.
Personally, I believe we are not sinful by nature, and we are born innocent with clean slates.
But even if we are born with a sinful nature, you have already accepted Christ and so this would still not be a problem.
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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:16 pm
Perhaps, Captain_Theoretical, but if you decide homosexuality goes against God's wishes, a situation like mine becomes beyond reconcilliation. If you decide homosexuality is not a sin, the situation becomes more tolerable, but still uncomfortable.
Namely, if you take the Bible as it is, a person such as myself has no role in God's world. If you decide to start reinterpreting the Bible, it becomes impossible to find a firm basis for your decisions, making any conclusion on my topic shaky at best.
I guess the biggest concern for me would be if we decide homosexuality is a sin, i see no way to prevent transgendered people from being rejects. If we decide it is not a sin, transgendered people have nothing in the Bible to hold to.
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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:24 pm
Quote: Perhaps, Captain_Theoretical, but if you decide homosexuality goes against God's wishes, a situation like mine becomes beyond reconcilliation. If you decide homosexuality is not a sin, the situation becomes more tolerable, but still uncomfortable. Namely, if you take the Bible as it is, a person such as myself has no role in God's world. If you decide to start reinterpreting the Bible, it becomes impossible to find a firm basis for your decisions, making any conclusion on my topic shaky at best. I guess the biggest concern for me would be if we decide homosexuality is a sin, i see no way to prevent transgendered people from being rejects. If we decide it is not a sin, transgendered people have nothing in the Bible to hold to. The situation is out of your control. It would be like saying having brown hair is a sin. The dictionary says that a sin is 2. Theology. a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God. Being transgendered is not a deliberate disobedience to the known will of God. Since you're using homosexuality as a reference point, I strongly reccomend this article. http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian I posted a link at the beginning of the discussion about homosexuality that was locked, but I don't think anyone read it. It's a very good article on the subject.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:28 am
I'd respond to this, but I can't because I'm confused on the terms everyone's using. I was under the impression that a transgendered person was someone who went and deliberately got a sex-change. Is that not the correct meaning of the word? I guess I could go look it up for myself. sweatdrop
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:42 am
Quote: I'd respond to this, but I can't because I'm confused on the terms everyone's using. I was under the impression that a transgendered person was someone who went and deliberately got a sex-change. Is that not the correct meaning of the word? I guess I could go look it up for myself. You're thinking of a transsexual. But not everyone who gets a sex change is a transsexual. Criminals for example, might get a sex change to avoid arrest, but that is a very rare occurence and I've only heard of it happening once. Transsexual people are people who desire to have, or have achieved, a different physical sex from their original physical sex. Transgender is an umbrella term for people who do not identify with the gender assigned to them at birth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransgenderWikipedia basically has most of everything on the subject. People just don't get sex changes on whims, they actually feel phsyically like the opposite sex. Their brain works like the opposite sex. They don't just wish to be the opposite sex, they feel that they already are but their bodies are wrong. I'm making generalizations since I'm obviously not a transsexual, so anyone please feel free to correct me or elaborate. It's an actual physical condition. And I don't see how getting a sex change could be a sin. You'd have to say that getting treatment for any kind of genetic condition was a sin.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:34 pm
So in general, so do transgendered persons generally change their physical sex or do most just stay the way they are? I'm still really confused on the issue. Like, physically, a transgendered person is born either male or female, right? It's just that their heart is opposite that? I'm really trying to understand. Sorry if I seem really dense. sweatdrop
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:41 pm
Quote: So in general, so do transgendered persons generally change their physical sex or do most just stay the way they are? Transsexuals are the only sect of transgendered people that get sex reassignment surgery. I'm not sure about hormones though. Quote: I'm still really confused on the issue. Like, physically, a transgendered person is born either male or female, right? People who are born both are hermaphrodites. And that's another thing altogether. Quote: It's just that their heart is opposite that? I'm really trying to understand. Sorry if I seem really dense. Physically they are one sex, emotionally and mentally they are another.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:57 pm
Ah, thank you! That clears up alot.
At any rate, I was reading my Bible today, and a verse from Paul's letter to the Galatians really stuck out concerning this topic.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." ~ Galatians 3:28-29
One of the interesting themes that seems to be evident in the beginning of this letter is that God doesn't show partiality. It doesn't matter if you were born male, female, both, neither, or had a sex change (though, I'm not sure why a person would want to change who God made them to be, because obviously He doesn't make mistakes and there's always a reason for why He does things). Whether you are a transgendered person or not, you are still a person in God's eyes and He still accepts you and loves you for who He made you to be. Being transgendered (or gay or a lesbian or bisexual) is not a sin. God does not hate or discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation (or lack thereof as the case sometimes is- I have a friend who has a friend sweatdrop ). Though, I am still under the belief that acting out on certain feelings (such as having sex with someone of the same sex as you) is a sin, because the Bible is pretty obvious about that.
So I hope that helped to answer your question.
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:48 am
zz1000zz, I have no idea what to say... I mean immanuelkant pretty much said anything I would have come up with, I don't know exactly how to ask this, but like how exactly are you both? Do you have 1 part of a male, and 1 of a female? I'm not trying to embarras you, I'm just trying to figure out what you say has happened to you.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:10 pm
Well, from this thread and from talking to my friend, the way I understand it is this: transgendered persons are those who truly feel they are in the wrong body. Those are the people you hear saying, "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body" or "I'm a man trapped in a woman's body." They feel that their gender does not match their physical sex.
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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:04 pm
My heart goes out to you, it really does. I know how hard it's been accepting myself as bisexual and accepting that God still loves me; I can only imagine how much more difficult a struggle you've faced.
God does love and accept you, though. And as far as relationships go, so long as you love someone, I do not believe their gender will matter to Him.
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:53 pm
I'm not trying to start an argument, just a discussion. But as far as the Word of God goes, being bisexual isn't exactly accepted by God. He understands you, but he doesn't accept that way of thinking as a right one. You know what I mean. And as far as thinking that you're trapped in the wrong body. I personally think that is a very stupid statement. God made you as a male or female. You don't get mixed up in a different body. You may feel that you should be the other gender, but you really shouldn't. God made me as a male, so I know myself as a man. I don't think that I wish that I was a female, I would think that was really dumb of me.
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