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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:44 pm
Yes, yes, two new topics in two days. But they both seem important to me.
Under the Novos system, what type of education would be required, and how would it be dispensed to the populous?
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:06 pm
I think we have had refrences to this in the past... I'll see if I can find them...
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Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:44 pm
I haven't found any, but that might be due to a shortened attention span right now.
Basically, if we're to maintain any sort of government - worldwide or otherwise - that maintains the free flow of ideas in society, it requires an educated populous. To solve the current world's problems requires a lot of education to poorer masses, and raising the rates of child literacy and female education the world over.
There are two points I'd appreciate coversation on. The first, is how to go about educating the current societies (they all need education) about various sociological and political methods. The second, is supposing that we unify the world or control a government or whatnot, what would be our standards of education? The standards of education of a supposedly ideal society.
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Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:06 am
Obviously, we'd want to set a very high standard for education, as it is possibly the most important function of any social system.
It would be good to have good public education available to all children through high school, and eventually though collage. many adults need to further their education, but often can't afford to go to classes, so public adult education would be good too. I'd like it all to be affordable and possibly free so social conditions didn't affect one's abilities.
Cultural education is less straight forward. I suppose the media and public TV, seminars and such would be the best ways of doing this. It would be slow, and some pockets of society would linger on for a while without being educated.
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Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:55 pm
Those various levels of education seem like something the state should provide. I s'pose if there was just some way that we could "test" as to whether or not the adult really wanted (or needed) to take a certain class, it could become free. But perpetual dropouts would still be a strain on the funding for that system.
Education is a strong pillar, but it can only go so far. Rather, it seems more important to instill self-education as a skill, and knowledge as a value. "Half of wisdom is knowing where to find the answers", after all. But knowledge for knowledge's sake is simply not something ANY society on earth values, and it's a real shame. Education is being treated as only as valuable as the job it gets you.
I think the mandatory education should be broadened, so as to lessen the strain on "cultural" education. Every student should learn various forms of math (I am far too opinionated on math, so I'll skip those particulars). They should also at least be exposed to these various sciences: geology (and earth science), anatomy, physiology, macrobiology (ecology), microbiology, chemistry, and calculus-based physics.
They should be exposed to as many foreign languages as they'd like, and literature courses should cover not only historical and contemporary American literature, but modern world literature. Every student needs to learn how to write for all subjects, not just simple expository compositions.
In addition to American and European histories, Ancient and Modern world histories should be taught, as well as economics (not just capitalism), political science, and government. Courses which are not taught at all right now that should be part of the curriculum are: psychology, sociology, history of religion, and religious theory. I believe they are FAR too important in understanding society to be bypassed.
Also, it should always be mandatory that they take a comprehensive environmental science course. A good one will bring in aspects of every hard science AND every social science, forcing students to think about far-reaching implications. Even if they don't become environmentalists, they'd have the exposure to that level of logic-based conceptualization.
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:41 am
any education system to be truly valuable must be totally free at source of use, or the intelligent-poor people - those who would benefit most - would be excluded, like they are throughtout most of the world at the moment... and a system to enable all people access (like grants, loans etc, so they can afford to live while being educated) would have to be considered.
education must be objective, there's no point in teaching science within a religious framework, or viceversa for example.
as for what should be taught, well, anything & everything the students could ever possibly want to learn! i have found that here in the uk, the education system, while better than many, is too restrictive and places too much focus on learning information by rote, rather than teaching people to think which is far more valuable, as it enables a person to educate themselves and with any luck, causes people to want to learn
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:26 am
Education would have to be segmented into practical and theoretical, presumably governed by an exam sat at around the age of twelve.
One sphere of education with an emphasis on the theorietical and academic for the prospective doctors, civil servants, teachers, professors and politicians. Another sphere with an emphasis on the vocational and practical for the chefs, drivers, manual construction workers, tailors, farmers and nurses.
Though naturally there would be a need for some degree of flexibility, a fossilised sort of 'caste' educational system being quite unhealthy and authoritarian.
Perhaps a more apposite question would be whether or not private education would be allowed.
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:41 am
Instead of one exam, I'd suggest one exam per year for a few years. this way the children get used to taking the exams and don't get penalized if they have a bad day.
On another note, education should start early. The US school system may be as fast as some people can handle, but I have always been bored with it. Advanced classes should start at an early age so that the students can truly reach their learning potential
A major roadblock to peace is the language barrier. Most highschoolers know how difficult learning other languages can be. I suggest that foreign languages be taught starting when the child is between 5 and 7.
Technology is narrowing the line between the two spheres of emphasis you suggested. Education needs flexibility. Perhaps having everyone take 10 years of general (or advanced) education, then be allowed to diverge in their learning to become whatever they want.
Private education is a necessary part of society. Without it, the government gains the ability to control what enters the minds of all the children. It impairs freedom of speech, although it doesn't clearly violate it.
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:38 pm
Assuming this Utopian society did exist, and didn't cover the entire world, there would always be the risk of contamination from more intolerant societies. To counter this I'd suggest courses with heavy influence on research, questioning, and a very very heavy influence on logic. Focus on these themes throughout the education, don't dictate notes to students, but rather have them go out and research the subjects themselves. Require multiple sources for each subject, and probably some form of paper with the student's idea of what the subject is and what it means. This of course isn't too necessary in mathematical subjects.
I agree that foreign languages should start at a very young age, but I also think that all education should begin as soon as the child is capable of leaving the hospital with its parents. Although I think the early stages of this education would focus on memory, language, and social skills, I still think it's a necessary part of a child's development. Following this, several years of schooling in general knowledge followed by advanced schooling in more specific career oriented knowledge would probably be best.
Mind you all this is only a brief summary of my thoughts on the subject, and I can always explain further if there are any questions about certain areas (and yes I know I've left some things out).
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Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:28 am
One thing I am against is private education, at least for children. I honestly believe that it is morally wrong. If the public education system doesn't meet the standards you want it to...you put money in and fix the system. You don't undermine it. Private education, as it is, creates a huge rift in America's educational system as it is. Those with private education don't have to worry about the "sink or swim" approach to college that I had to take.
A type of charter school I think would be a better idea. Schools which perform better could then be more selective, but still free; but charter schools only work up to a point, and only in highly populated cities (there are already many in Los Angeles).
As to what exactly should be taught...wisdom should be revered above knowledge. "Half of being smart is knowing how to find the answer." While teaching students logical patterns and reasoning is undervalued, so is the ability to research. The ability to write and communicate well, too, is subverted by the dreaded multiple choice test. Knowledge - and even pure wisdom - are nothing without communication skills. After TA-ing for a few classes, I'm tired of seeing students get A's on MC tests but hand in essays that are like, "Drilling in ANWR would be very bad. It could upset the ecosystem there. I liek polar bears."
I'm torn on where to draw the line on education. On the one hand, I understand the need for vocation-specific education; on the other, I'm appalled at the fact that education for the sake of education is NOT a value of ANY society in the world. While a vocational worker should certainly be competent, can they not also be well-read? Is it really so impossible that the garbagemen of a Utopian society still be able to discuss Plato and modern science in the same breath? By starting education earlier and emphasizing logic and process over specific material, we can accomplish both. To me, the most valuable student is the one who has been exposed to a wide array of materials and understands how to work with each.
And Tenescowri; I agree that education should be objective. But, in the case of trying to expand a child's knowledge on cases of sociology, religion, philosophy, even economics and political science, this can be hard. I maintain that courses in religious philosophy and/or history of religion should be mandatory, but they must be taught correctly to avoid corruption. I also agree that a wide array of courses should be available at all age levels, not only college; however, economical concerns shift more towards "popular" courses, and so we must still build a very basic core that would be absolutely required.
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Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:40 pm
Aperium I think we have had refrences to this in the past... I'll see if I can find them... There were discussions on this in The Party Platform, in the Archived Threads subforum. I'd suggest reading it, since I don't feel like quoting it all. But one post had mostly all of our ideas on education in a nutshell. Mr. Grunkalunka Education Reform through Specialized Teaching Methods -Let placement testing provide a much bigger role in education (specifically learning styles), of course still allowing for several fail-safes. -Revise the curriculum with several different versions all pertaining to different learning types (auditory, visual, kinetic, etc.) -Create a new scheduling system to make sure kids get placed in the right classes that use the right teaching method. -Also specialize classes based on learning speed. -Create an emphasis on real world applications and make sure students have access to information regarding it (ex: bringing in people with relevant jobs, having assignments to find people who use *random skill* in their work, on site observations or simulating certain jobs inside the classrooms). -Make high school optional and allow any student to drop out provided they can pass a test covering basic English (or other native language), math, logic, and history skills. -Allow drop outs to reenter easily (after a couple days of real work most kids will get their priorities straight). I wrote something in the discussion (or maybe it was a different thread) about specializing classes for the speed of the student. There would be probably three levels for each class, and things would be far more self-paced. I also wanted the school to be set up so a child earns credits much like one would in high school or college. It seems that anything lower than that is much to vague, and wastes a lot of time trying to figure out what all the kids learned and what they need to learn. I remember in elementary school, I hardly learned anything, since three-quarters of the year was focused on review. I'm thinking of creating a new Party Platform, just so we all have a place where there's a summary of our current views. Any agreements or oppositions?
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Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:32 pm
Swordmaster Dragon One thing I am against is private education, at least for children. I honestly believe that it is morally wrong. If the public education system doesn't meet the standards you want it to...you put money in and fix the system. You don't undermine it. Private education, as it is, creates a huge rift in America's educational system as it is. Those with private education don't have to worry about the "sink or swim" approach to college that I had to take. A type of charter school I think would be a better idea. Schools which perform better could then be more selective, but still free; but charter schools only work up to a point, and only in highly populated cities (there are already many in Los Angeles). I have to disagree with you there. I went to a private school in middle school, because my public elementary school was horrible and did not really care about anyone's education. I learned more in my first year of middle school than I ever learned from teachers in elementary school (I mostly had to teach myself through reading outside of class). Private schools, or at least the one I went to, are created by people with a passion for teaching children, and you get so much more from people who actually enjoy their work. Because they had a passion for teaching, the students had a passion for learning. The problem is, of course, the acessibility. Find ways to make teachers and administraters passionate about what they do, and you will quickly have a school as good as a private school. I'm not really sure how to make this more common, and it is a shame how hard it is to find education of that kind of quality.
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:10 am
Aeridea I have to disagree with you there. I went to a private school in middle school, because my public elementary school was horrible and did not really care about anyone's education. I learned more in my first year of middle school than I ever learned from teachers in elementary school (I mostly had to teach myself through reading outside of class). Private schools, or at least the one I went to, are created by people with a passion for teaching children, and you get so much more from people who actually enjoy their work. Because they had a passion for teaching, the students had a passion for learning. The problem is, of course, the acessibility. Find ways to make teachers and administraters passionate about what they do, and you will quickly have a school as good as a private school. I'm not really sure how to make this more common, and it is a shame how hard it is to find education of that kind of quality. In a way, you've summarized my point. Those people you had for teachers in middle school *wanted* to teach; why weren't they in the public education system? Instead, they were undermining it and reducing its efficiency and potency even more (s'posing that's even possible). Get *those* people to teach in public schools; rather, make it more profitable to teach in public schools. But, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I was always pissed that I could never go to Harvard-Westlake; it's a $30,000-a-year high school, when I had to work through high school to eat and pay rent. Then I get to college (Ivy-league, of course) to find that my 7 high school classes and 3 college classes per year didn't prepare me for s**t in the real world, while private school students get easy A's. As to the previous educational ideas, as quoted in your post...wonderful. Absolutely great ideas. With what money? People don't even want to raise taxes for the current educational system...the one you're looking at would cost at least 20 times the current one (since you'd have to apply it to even more students than the current one).
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:00 pm
No real comments, just that without war, the governments would have a lot more money to go around.
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Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:24 pm
Swordmaster Dragon Aeridea I have to disagree with you there. I went to a private school in middle school, because my public elementary school was horrible and did not really care about anyone's education. I learned more in my first year of middle school than I ever learned from teachers in elementary school (I mostly had to teach myself through reading outside of class). Private schools, or at least the one I went to, are created by people with a passion for teaching children, and you get so much more from people who actually enjoy their work. Because they had a passion for teaching, the students had a passion for learning. The problem is, of course, the acessibility. Find ways to make teachers and administraters passionate about what they do, and you will quickly have a school as good as a private school. I'm not really sure how to make this more common, and it is a shame how hard it is to find education of that kind of quality. In a way, you've summarized my point. Those people you had for teachers in middle school *wanted* to teach; why weren't they in the public education system? Instead, they were undermining it and reducing its efficiency and potency even more (s'posing that's even possible). Get *those* people to teach in public schools; rather, make it more profitable to teach in public schools. But, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I was always pissed that I could never go to Harvard-Westlake; it's a $30,000-a-year high school, when I had to work through high school to eat and pay rent. Then I get to college (Ivy-league, of course) to find that my 7 high school classes and 3 college classes per year didn't prepare me for s**t in the real world, while private school students get easy A's. As to the previous educational ideas, as quoted in your post...wonderful. Absolutely great ideas. With what money? People don't even want to raise taxes for the current educational system...the one you're looking at would cost at least 20 times the current one (since you'd have to apply it to even more students than the current one). Oh no, it was definitely not more profitable moneywise. The first year none of the faculty could afford to pay rent anywhere, and they all lived in the second story, which may not have been legal. Why did they do this you ask? They had a passion for teaching that they couldn't find in the public school system, so rather than throwing money into a useless system, they did something about it and formed their own school. The public school system needs to give an incentive for teachers and staff to put in their time and effort. I'm not sure how you would do that, but there would probably be more funding involved somewhere. Well, I can understand you anger there. I think there should be more ways for students to get scholarships to colleges and even highschools (the private schools). I was pissed that my parents made too much money for the financial aid to go to a private high school, but not enough money to put me through all private schools (I found out my parents almost went bankrupt several times the three years I was at my middle school). Pretty sucky system, no? One idea is if you want to abolish private schools, you could have some "upper" schools for lack of a better word, where it is still free, but you'd have to apply, maybe even have an interview or something. That way you could be around people who actually want to learn, and it would be good practice for applying to colleges. As for the funding, yeah, I can see where people would whine about that. But, if there were no wars, that's a huge chunk of money that could be spent much more wisely, as Myslec already said. And I'm sure the funding can be re-arranged so that people's taxes don't raise too much. Maybe even have advertisements promoting children's education, as well as articles and reports on the new plan. Maybe if the public saw how much kids will be benefited by this, they would be willing to help. It annoys me how much society forgets that children will someday be adults, and they should do something to prepare them adequately for that.
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