Welcome to Gaia! ::

Bottom line of this post:

I've always wanted for Silver to be a hunter and maybe even a dressage prospect, but it looks like it's just not going to happen. I don't know what to do.

Firstly, the headset/self-carriage thing. I mentioned ages ago that I'd bought a chambon and that it was helping a lot with the way he carried himself. Now, when he's wearing the chambon, it's almost perfect. He knows what to do; he IMMEDIATELY drops his head, rounds his neck and back, gets his hind legs under - works correctly and diligently. Observe le photo. (And he's not overbent; the angle and blurriness of the picture make it look that way, but he always travels slightly in front of the vertical, not behind it.)



However, I take the chambon OFF and he's RIGHT back to throwing his head into the air and going hollow again, slopping around and refusing to engage his hindquarters, with or without tack and a rider. I know he CAN travel correctly; he travels correctly EVERY TIME with the chambon on, even with it adjusted very loosely. It's like he has a mental connection between rounding and the chambon, but doesn't think he's supposed to go round WITHOUT it. I don't know HOW to bridge the gap and make him understand that that's how he's supposed to travel ALL THE TIME. Nothing's WORKING.

And his jumping. He has decent form most of the time, but not perfect; his main flaw is that it's like he's LAZY. Rather than pick his feet up and give an honest effort at a nice clean jump, he'd rather slop around, trail his front legs, and simply jump HIGHER instead of BETTER. He's not nervous; he doesn't overjump out of fear or being startled. He just seems to think "Oh, that jump is three feet tall? Well, if I launch myself FIVE feet into the air, I won't have to bother tucking my legs!" He does the same thing over smaller jumps (ESPECIALLY over smaller jumps, for that matter). Gridwork hasn't helped. Putting poles in front of the jumps does nothing as well - he still just jumps as high as he can and won't tuck his legs.

In theory, he could be a jumper. He can canter and jump quickly. He can sure as hell jump high. What he can't (or won't) seem to do is keep a good outline and compose himself correctly over jumps. How am I supposed to make a hunter out of a horse that won't even try? He likes jumping and he likes riding (likes longeing less.. =P)... but he only likes doing it HIS way. I've been trying to fix this for a year and a half now, and I'm getting very frustrated and starting to feel like there's just no hope for us. I'm not a jumper rider; I don't do well with working against a clock in anything except essays. I don't like how half of the jumper riders in existence suck beyond all reason and their horses have terrible form and little 'fine-tuning,' so to speak - there's no subtlety, no control, just horses dashing around and speeding over jumps.

Rocket is more of a warmblood-type pony. ROCKET rounds (not much, but a lot more than Silver does) naturally and at least carries himself normally, not hollow and strung-out. ROCKET has always tucked his legs up VERY nicely for jumps, even though he absolutely detests jumping. Things that have come naturally to almost every other horse I've ever owned/ridden, I haven't been able to beat into Silver's head after years of careful training, and it's taking a serious emotional toll on me (not on Silver; he's fine. He's perfectly cheeky, because life is all play and no work to him).

As much as I love Silver and his personality - the Arab energy and sensitivity - I swear, the next horse I buy will be a warmblood.

for the jumping thing, for some horses that's just the way they jump, with theirn knees hanging. my mare does that. the one thing (and only) that makes is better is a nice approch to the jump. a springy canter with her head up, and she looks like a hunter. a crapy approach and we get hanging knees (plus if im jumping anything under 2'3 it doesnt matter how nice the approach is, its just a big canter step! haha).

this is a bad set up for the jump and look where it got me, i have a bad position and my horses legs are uneven and hanging.she fell on the for hand.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/brat_and_a_half/P8120028.jpg

this was a good set up for the jump, my position was better (lol, i look like a noob so loose in the tack!) and my horse picked herself up and jumped better because of it, looking like a hunter!
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/brat_and_a_half/jump.jpg

even at a low jump, when set up well for it, a jump can be good (even if she is dropping her sholder a little early, her legs are even and she actually jumped it)
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/brat_and_a_half/P8120021.jpg

as fo going round id say draw reins, but i know u dont like them so never mind that. is it possible to get some training done on him? like get a trainer to ride him for a few weeks? theres one mare at the farm here that the only one who can get her round (by only one, i mean me and the other riders my age) is my coach (well, i guess shes not my age, haha). and i can ride a lot of difficult horses round. u could try jiggling the out side rein when hes shaking his head, and making a saw like motion with the bit when he rufuses to soften (that sounds worse than it is, but i cant think of another way to explain it). i use that thechnique on hard mouthed horses as well with a lot of leg. but yeah, id seak some professional help if u can get it.

Firstly, I was using the chambon for muscle development, because he had NO muscle on his crest but plenty on the underside of his neck. Please understand that I wasn't trying to use it as a 'training shortcut,' per se... I was rather hoping that having some natural muscle in that area would make it easier for him to round (and, well, it did) and encourage him to do it more often (...and that's where we failed). I honestly don't know WHAT to do from here. I have tried EVERYTHING to get him to drop his head and round off, even a LITTLE - SOMETIMES he'll even drop his head a bit, but there's no rounding at ALL. This is something I've been working on for TWO YEARS; none of the 'conventional' methods have worked. No matter how well I ride - or how well anyone else rides, for that matter - or how much I try to encourage him to get his hindquarters under, or use hills to encourage him to stretch out, you name it - it just hasn't worked.



...Unfortunately, I know. *pained look*

As for Arabs not being suited for jumping, I've seen plenty of good Arab jumpers on the internet [none in person xp ], and I have a magazine article about a 14.2h Arab who won against 16h TBs and warmbloods. Of course, I would imagine it's rare.

I would like to try him in some other things like endurance, but the only things offered for English riders in the show world here are hunter/jumper, basic flat classes, and dressage - and he can't even do flat classes or dressage because of his horrible outline / lack of proper composure.

The most common classes around here are WP and barrel racing. *rolls eyes*

DE + Brat - heh, thanks for the advice. And no, I couldn't afford a trainer - not that there are any good trainers around here anyway. The only major English horsey friend I have ships her horse off to another state to have his training done.

There are always exceptions to the rule, Chick, but overall most people agree that Arabs don't make as good of jumpers as other breeds. For the most part they're not really dressage inclined either, as most have a tendancy to break at the third vetebrae instead of at the poll, having more vertabrae, and are naturally quite high headed.

I was in the same sort of predicament earlier this year, I had to decide whether or not to sell a mare that wasn't really suitable for what I wanted to do. She was a big, bulldoggy QH, and eventually I want to do 3-day, and she was...not really the type. Now, I could have tried harder to train her to be the type, but she really, REALLY, just didn't seem to enjoy it.

It really depends on what you want to do, as opposed to what your horse wants to do.

Oh, and I find most big warmbloods a little sluggish. xd They make great hunters and dressage horses though. It's merely the fact that their movement is inclined 'UP' as in, they have massive impulsion, instead of 'FORWARD' say with a TB type. They're great for what you want to do, but for Cross Country I think they'd be a little silly.

rofl

I think Silver's a fine looking beast. Will you keep him even if you do decide to get something more warmblood-type?

Endurance and 3-day horses must have thier veins pretty close to the surface, to enable them to cool off. A bulldog quarter horse has little TB in it, and would not have the right cooling mechanism or musculature (slow twitch vs fast twitch).

I really believe in the right horse for the discipline. They have to have the right type of body... the mind also comes to play, but can be shaped to a certain degree. The body can too, but only within the confines of the horse's genes.

In 3-day, you'll find that TB or part TB horses predominate. In endurance, of course, the Arab or part Arab predominate. That's because they are physically suited for the sports.

Warmbloods predominate in dresage because of their action and because judges have become overly fond of BIG horses. TBs can also do very well in dressage, as some do have the high action needed. Actually many of the warmblood breeds have a lot of TB in them, for refinement.

Hell, I saw a Connemara do a demonstratin of free-style at the Washington International one year, and the crowd was on its feet... that horse (some of that breed can reach 14.2 and more) was perfection.

Great name. Winston... LOL as in Churchill !


I adore your sig pic... I stole it, I won't use it here, but I'll find a place for it.

Groovy Spleen - I will if I can afford to, but in a year I'm going to be a broke college student... it'll be enough of a struggle just to take him with me to college; I'm not sure if I could afford or even keep up with two horses. I don't know WHAT I'm going to do. I know that I CAN'T sell him to anyone HERE (this whole part of the country is just infested with STUPID [the deep south -__-]; the only people here who know how to take care of their horses moved here from other states). If I do sell him, it'll be to someone who lives near where I go to college - further north. I'm very attached to him; I got him as a little 2-year-old (weaned and sold at 3 months - had been motherless ever since) and raised him and trained him; by now, he thinks I'm his mother. It would break his heart if I gave him to someone else, and despite his apparent lack of talent for any of the events I like, I don't want to give him to anyone else, either. neutral

comment on having the mind to do certain events - Silver DOES like jumping. He thinks it's all one big fun game, which is one factor in my desperately hoping he would make a hunter - because he'd be happy doing it. I don't bother with jumping Rocket firstly because he's short and secondly because he hates it. Silver was so enthusiastic about it, I thought "Finally, one I can work with!!" (And now this. -___-)

Sams Peprika - Unfortunately there are no endurance or driving shows / competitions here at all. Like I said, only dressage, flat classes, and hunter/jumper. No cross country or anything. We have every WESTERN event you can imagine here; 98% of the horsey population has never sat in an English saddle before.. rolleyes

Darkeenya - Jiggling the outside rein and, if he needs it, a bump with the inside leg; if he's got his head thrown way up in the air and won't put it down, I use exaggerated half-halts. How are you supposed to cue for roundness on the longe? You can't give ridden aids from the saddle.

I can only work with him once or twice a week because of school; I plan on, during the summer, living at my dad's so I can work with him every day. Hopefully the constant repetition and building of muscle (he doesn't have as much as he could, of course, with only being worked once or twice a week) will help...



----


As for the jumping... I don't know, maybe I'm being too hard on him (with critiquing his form)... he's better on bigger jumps, and he's not ALWAYS all THAT bad....

Pics:

This was a year ago, and though his front legs are uneven, they're tucked all right...


Last winter; not perfect, but he DOES bring his legs up...


And here's where we start to see what I'm talking about *sigh*... see how his legs look like they're kind of just... HANGING there?

I don't know, what do you guys think?


EDIT:

Here's a video from when he was first learning to jump. I led him over lots of little jumps - hehe, in this one, he got a bit ahead of me so I stuck a hand out to slow him down a little... I thought it was cute; he immediately turned and looked at me like "Mommy, did I do a good job!?!" ^___________________^

http://www.freewebs.com/motvrpg/silverjumpvideo.wmv

I agree with you as well. The arab I own now was the norwegian champion for some years ago. And Norway is quite good when it comes to jumping 3nodding

Using arabs in this sport is actually quite usual here. They are fast, flexible and durable wink