Welcome to Gaia! ::

(Someone correct me on these quotes if they're wrong; I just ganked them off of Wikipedia.)

I want to discuss these adages. These, the second one in particular, are quite universal in terms of pagan/Wiccan lore and almost a prerequisite for joining any community with the aforementioned theme. To say that one does not abide by the Law of Return in some circles practically invites ostracism or outright exclusion.

I'm not trying to attack Wicca or specific Wiccan morals here, or to start a flamewar or summon up the dramallama . Though, to be fair, for the record I do not, and have never, identified as a Wiccan. My line of thought and personal ethics takes a different path. But just because I am different does not mean I am attacking; I hope no one reads this post as such. sweatdrop

I am fishing, first, to see what "the Threefold Law," "an' it harm none," etc mean to you, beyond a simple response like "don't hurt people" or "karma." It's something I think many pagans, heathens, Wiccans, etc., sort of assume definitions for in discussion, instead of working to establish a common and clear understanding. I'm a bit tired at the moment, and also I want some initial reactions and thoughts for me to respond to. But, so people know where I am coming from--

My ethical system is largely Satanic is a number of ways. I have no problem giving people what they deserve--which is different than going around wreaking metaphysical havoc and sowing the seeds of wanton destruction. And the question becomes: where is the line between empowering yourself, and becoming a slave of obsession over your enemy/enemies? If you are constantly investing so much time into binding, hexing, cursing, whatever-ing someone else, what can you possibly do for you? Such a weird dependency, I think, is degrading. Likewise, I protect and bolster those whom I love; their success and happiness contributes directly to my own. As their dignity is raised, so is my own. I think there's actually a Kantian concept of publicity to go into here, but I will go into that later, or edit it in. I want to open up the table for discussion now.

Some questions to guide you:

What constitutes the "harm" in "An' it harm none, do what ye will"?

Do you think you are ever justified in harming another, whatever "harming" may mean to you?

Do you consider yourself a vehicle for "karma" (colloquial Western use of the word isn't quite the same as its traditional meaning, hence the quotes)? As in, someone does something bad, magically or otherwise, to a friend of yours, without any provocation or reason other than being a meanie poo poo head. You retaliate on their behalf, on the offensive:

Would you consider this part of the poo poo head's "return" from the original magic cast; that is, do you think that "karma"/cause and effect is acting through you?

Or is this a separate "ripple" from the one that attacked your friend, and it's much the same as if you had attacked the poo poo head for no reason?

Or do you go on the defensive instead and simply shield and protect and undo, and trust that poo poo head will get what's coming to him in a big way without your contribution?

Or do you conceive of this situation in some vastly different way? If so, what?

When you receive good, do you try to return it out to the world as much as possible?

I'm a philosophy major, and I'm especially interested in ethics. So I am really curious to see what all of you have to say for these questions. And remember, there's no wrong answer 3nodding . I'm not going to attack anyone for their moral paradigms (and I should hope that such behaviour stays out of this thread altogether). I just want to see what everyone thinks.

Mods: If you think this belongs in Magical Discussion instead of Extended, feel free to move it. My intent in putting this in here was less focused on magic and more focused in ethics, personal morals, etc.

Much like pushing on a door marked "pull"? That makes sense. The two times I've done any kind of offensive magic, I did make sure to work up enough energy to get things done--in addition to accepting any consequences that would happen as a result (though I built in pretty good damage control). All of the supportive sort of magic I've done has required much less energy.

And Kant's "publicity principle," just as another way for looking at ethics:

If you are achieving an end that would be spoiled if you made it public, then chances are it's not a good thing. (For example, if you told someone, "I am going to steal your purse," at the least they wouldn't allow you to, and you could possibly get in trouble, go to jail, etc.) Much like if someone finds out that you're going to curse them, you'd be foiled.

The self-destructive 'karmic' circle you mentioned is what I had in mind when talking about obsession in the first post. It can be VERY easy to get hooked on throwing all of your psychic self against the brick wall of vengeance/retribution/revenge/whatever. After all, it's possibly THE most passive-aggressive action you can take: you don't have to deal with the person directly, but you can channel all of your rage and such elsewhere in a manner that you believe is hurting them.

I'm not promoting that kind of behavior. Like I mentioned earlier, it's not healthy and it stunts personal growth. You have to be mature enough, I think, to know when something offensive is appropriate and when it isn't. To know when to just let something go and move on.

(I'm also thinking of an episode of the show My Name is Earl, where he's working at a fast food restaurant as a favor to one of the people he'd wronged earlier in life. The boss is a scuzzball by all counts--steals money from the company, is a jerk to all of the employees, cheats on his wife--but he has everything going for him. Earl refuses to do anything to him because he believes that Karma will take care of this guy, but one day he gets so angry that he just snaps and clocks the boss in the face, setting off a chain reaction that ends with the boss getting roughly what he "deserves": going to jail for stealing, his wife leaving him, etc. Earl comments at the end that "maybe Karma was acting through my fist." A facetious example that probably leaves a lot to be desired, but that's about the gist of my thinking.)

Finding prior references to a "threefold law" depends on how specific and narrow you're being in the comparisson. While there may be no direct connection to anything prior to Wicca, there are plenty of similar ideas to the threefold law that have existed ages before Wicca ever coined this specific variation of the concept.

The basic concept of "actions have consequences" and "every action has a reaction" was recognized since the earliest days of human existence. It was the attempts to categorize and understand these things that created early magical thinking and religious systems.

When writing emerged, these ideas became refferenced so we know them through history. The Golden Rule is in some ways a variant of the basic concept and so is the concept of karma in Eastern religions.

Well, It is considered against there will, unless perhaps you had told them of "helping them" and they agreed, then good will come back, but the statement Panther Windsong stated does arrise many questions. I would come to the conclusion that the three fold law is baised on the perseption of ones actions.

I believe in treating others as they would wish or sometimes deserve to be treated (if you are comfortable with doing so). I think that treating people as you would wish to be treated may be wrong as some people like to be lead and told what to do, while others wish to think for themselves.

It's a difficult topic to define but I try to live by my own ethics and what I am told by my Guardians and God(desse)s.

I don't harm others wherever possible I try to utilise the energy they use to harm me to boost my own shielding, why should I wait my energy on them when they are just providing me with free energy. Sometimes I give it to the earth.