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 Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:16 pm
*Hijacked By NJ*
This is in response to the talk about Fox in the general smash dicussion thread.
Fox is that close to God Tier it's not funny. The only thing limiting Fox players is their own technical skill in my opinion.
Something I thought about recently is the Technical Skill Vs Mindgames debate, and how the general consensus is Mindgames > Technical Skill.
Well that is obviously true, but IMO, the best way to improve your mindgames, is to improve you technical skill. In the end your Mindgames will be limited to what you are capable of as a player.
Theoretically, Falco shouldn't even hold a candle to Fox, although theoretically speaking, the tier list could look like this:
Top Tier:
Fox
Bottom Tier:
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Peach
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Doctor Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu
Yoshi
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo
That is assuming someone could eventually play at a level close to SuperDoodleMan's AR adventure.
The point I'm making is that mindgames are only limited by technical skill.
Sure, you get players who have strange mindgames with lesser tech skill, but when you combine both, you get players like Bombsoldier, who because of their prowess, are still relevant today.
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:30 pm
actually, i've heard bombsoldier sucks now and everything manacloud said was bullshit
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:27 pm
Cause we should really listen to what you say.
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:31 pm
True, but no human could ever reach that point so we never have to worry about that.
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:20 am
nny` True, but no human could ever reach that point so we never have to worry about that. I agree, and lol at your sig nny 8-bit ftw.
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:17 am
nny` True, but no human could ever reach that point so we never have to worry about that. You say that, but as you do someone is gonna sponser a child in a 3rd world country and send them a cube/powergenerator/tv and they will achieve smash perfection with every character. Ken will mean nothing. NothingAlso, out of game mindgames are still to be considered. If I can't WD I can't Steve Fox them?
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:15 am
I have a friend who is just learning to L-cancel, and he keeps up with me in almost every game. He just rips apart what you do and takes advantage of the openings.
His tech skill is 0-but his mindgames make up for it.
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:40 am
NACHO Syke Cause we should really listen to what you say. I'm just saying thats what I've heard, did I say it was true or not?
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:14 pm
Sure Fox is pretty near God tier(Peach actually counters Fox..even if he is played like a God), but I think your forgeting about all the other god tiered characters...well..mostly Marth. Marth's range is pretty ridiculous. He can eat through all projectiles and spit out attacks much faster than Fox, making it really hard to even get near him. His fair kills very easily and he can combo 0 to death very easily. His grab range is beyond broken and he can easily chain grab fast falling characters, while making hard to be chained grab because of his floatiness. Pretty much..i'd personally put Marth above Fox.
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:31 pm
There is no need for mind games when your tech and reaction skill is that far beyond. If you can react instantly whats the point of trying to make an opening when you can easily bum rush them after the first shine, failed attack, power shield...you name it.
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:26 pm
Peach doesnt counter fox. I think peach v fox is a very even matchup. peach is a marth/falco counter imo.
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:50 am
I agree that fox vs peach is even but I would also say that marth peach is even, chain grabbing and being tipped out of it
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Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:50 pm
Peach DOES not counter Fox. Take it from a Peach player, she belongs where she's at in the tiers. All the characters above her tend to have advantage, Marth and Shiek are very close/ sometimes even and Fox and Falco is slightly advantaged to her, but I'd say it might be closer than Marth/Shiek matchup because she can combo them (space animals) so well.
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:32 am
this thread takes me back to my first post in this guild, the one where i mention my friend who uses no technical skill but is pretty good with mindgames, he played fox too and i think he was pretty close to that god lvl
my friends seem to all think that fox > peach since fox is way faster then peach and if given the chance peach will most likely not even get to attack b4 fox uairs her to death.
ive seen the matches of them vs and other ppls fox and i see y they think that but in the end they all lose cuz of the same thing, since fox is so fast they think they should try to match his speed and outdo him instead of waitin patiently for the right time to attack. in the end i guess it really does come down to the capabilities of the player controllin the character
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:51 pm
tech skill in the end is better than mindgames IMO (well for fox at least) just because of double jump shine cancel. every other frame you can shine? your cant beat that hardly, even if you slip up you can just start double jump shine like a madman, because the shine has high enough priority to cancel everything out and well if you are shining that fast you can counter their attack no matter what it is really.
on human level of play though mindgames take the cake. just look at dope, his falco really isn't that technical at all but he has crazy good mindgames. he isn't the best but I'd say he's up there in the rankings for sure, one of the best falco's in the US.
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