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 Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:09 am
I could just be misunderstanding, but according the the canon, Hiei never knew where the floating island was until he got the Jagan implanted. He didn't get the Jagan implanted until relatively recently, not too long before he shows up in the series (his power level is still abysmal because of the implant, hence Yuusuke being able to beat him). Therefore, he has never seen Yukina since they were infants, until he shows up at Tarukane's mansion -- by the time he returned the ice village for the first time since birth, Yukina had already left.
So why does he have that flashback where she's playing in the snow as a little girl? Is that a difference between anime/manga canon, or an actual error?
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 6:38 pm
....That's a good question. The manga says Yukina gets captured when she wanders off to play with animals. So I'm assuming Yukina wandered off the island--considering the elevation of it, after all; no one has gotten there in ages. So it's possible that Hiei was able to find her after she wandered off the island after he got his Jagan.
*mind spins* Did that help at all?
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 12:31 am
Yeah it does say that Yukina did like to wander off, much like her mother did... So that flashback might have been Hiei seeing her just before she was captured. I'm not too sure... It does get a little confusing.
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 5:53 pm
She might have even been looking for him (her long lost brother) back then but... I dont know... sweatdrop
Good question!!!
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 4:32 am
she did look for him...Rui told her that she had a brother..what i am very curious about is that was before Hiei 1st met Kurama in the Human world..Yukina didnt know who he was..and if she had a brother..but when she gone back that was the time she knew...but it was said in episode 99..that Hiei had a flashback when he was about to go back to the Demon World because Mukuro summoned him, Yukina told him that when she get back Rui told her that she had a brother. so..i dont know which one is really true..did Yukina really know from the the beginnind or not..
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:56 pm
JesanaeTekani I could just be misunderstanding, but according the the canon, Hiei never knew where the floating island was until he got the Jagan implanted. He didn't get the Jagan implanted until relatively recently, not too long before he shows up in the series (his power level is still abysmal because of the implant, hence Yuusuke being able to beat him). Therefore, he has never seen Yukina since they were infants, until he shows up at Tarukane's mansion -- by the time he returned the ice village for the first time since birth, Yukina had already left. So why does he have that flashback where she's playing in the snow as a little girl? Is that a difference between anime/manga canon, or an actual error? not true, actually. Hiei says he had seen her once before Tarukane, but hadn't gotten close. Hence the flashback. 3nodding I think you may be underestimating the time between when he got his jagan and when he shows up in the series. the discontinuity that bother me is this: (though, it might just be a stupid dub thing; it's hard for me to get ahold of the sub) Shigure knows Hiei has a sister. Therefore, Hiei must have know, and told him, before he found Koorime. But, Hiei says that Rui was the one who told him that he had a sister, when he went there (Aka: after the implant). Is it just me, or does that NOT work at all? eek Also, an even more obvious one: during the save Yukina arc, Hiei says that he and Yukina are half-siblings, but they're twins. Then again, that one probably just a dubbing error. Funimation seems to make a lot of those. scream
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:43 pm
Kiara_Pyrenei JesanaeTekani I could just be misunderstanding, but according the the canon, Hiei never knew where the floating island was until he got the Jagan implanted. He didn't get the Jagan implanted until relatively recently, not too long before he shows up in the series (his power level is still abysmal because of the implant, hence Yuusuke being able to beat him). Therefore, he has never seen Yukina since they were infants, until he shows up at Tarukane's mansion -- by the time he returned the ice village for the first time since birth, Yukina had already left. So why does he have that flashback where she's playing in the snow as a little girl? Is that a difference between anime/manga canon, or an actual error? not true, actually. Hiei says he had seen her once before Tarukane, but hadn't gotten close. Hence the flashback. 3nodding I think you may be underestimating the time between when he got his jagan and when he shows up in the series. the discontinuity that bother me is this: (though, it might just be a stupid dub thing; it's hard for me to get ahold of the sub) Shigure knows Hiei has a sister. Therefore, Hiei must have know, and told him, before he found Koorime. But, Hiei says that Rui was the one who told him that he had a sister, when he went there (Aka: after the implant). Is it just me, or does that NOT work at all? eek Also, an even more obvious one: during the save Yukina arc, Hiei says that he and Yukina are half-siblings, but they're twins. Then again, that one probably just a dubbing error. Funimation seems to make a lot of those. scream Hm. Can you quote me the episode where he says this? I'd like to reference his exact wording. I still think it's an error, because as young as he looks, at the time he got his Jagan he definitely didn't look as young as he did in the flashback. He looked even more diminutive than usual, and Yukina was downright chibi. Given the slower rate at which demons seem to age, it doesn't seem plausible that the flashback was post-Jagan, pre-series. Another thing that makes me think he couldn't have been much younger: the fact that he was still at such a low power level at the beginning of the series (courtesy of the implant having drained his strength to almost nothing). I put his implant around six months before he steals the Artifacts of Darkness. Yukina was imprisoned by Tarukane for much longer than that. If he was an A-class demon before the implant, don't you think he'd have had time to build it back up in the interim if it had been any longer? I doubt he'd have neglected to do so -- it might have gotten him killed if he'd let his power level remain depleted. Makai's a hostile place. o.o I do agree with your Rui/Shigure issue; I'm going to have to look that one up and see if I can figure out whether they qualify that at all or if they just screwed up. While it's possible that Shigure knew that independently somehow, Hiei's response about how he never planned to tell her kind of nukes that explanation. And as for the half-siblings thing, it's either a dub error or (and I always thought this would be funnier) Hiei's lying to get Yuusuke to stop prodding him. . . . Oooh! Plot bunny!
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:41 pm
It's been rumored to me that he was lieing when he said half sister. It is possible even though it is rare for Hiei to lie. He could have done it because he didn't want to shame Yukina with having any fire demon blood.
Another reason he could have said it was because although he was in the same womb as Yukina and born together, she could have been created because of the hundred year time span instead of conseption as Hiei was, kind of like the fire demon took the advantage that Hina was due for a pregnancy to conceal his son's birth. This would technically make him a half sibling because although they are twins, she would have no fire demon blood in her.
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:54 pm
About that whole half-siblings thing, the Koorime reproduced asexually and sexually so Yukina might have been asexual and Hiei sexual. *shrugs* A friend of mine suggested that.
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:19 pm
Scotj About that whole half-siblings thing, the Koorime reproduced asexually and sexually so Yukina might have been asexual and Hiei sexual. *shrugs* A friend of mine suggested that. I take that back. I'm not sure anymore. Two eggs at once, in a species that reproduces only once every 100 years? eek Something about that doesn't add up . . . Any further debate on the original thread topic? I'm interested to see if anyone still disagrees with me and can back it up. I'm not as familiar with the manga as I'd like to be, and if anything else can be provided that patches the plot hole, I really want to know it. Otherwise it's going to demand another one-shot fanfiction, and I'm not sure my brain can handle any more of those right now.
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Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:27 pm
manga and show are different
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Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:32 pm
Xx_Shizuka_Ryuuzaki_xX manga and show are different the manga is always the original one..
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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:47 pm
Xx_Shizuka_Ryuuzaki_xX manga and show are different Um, yes. I'm working with the show, and taking into account manga canon where anime canon fails to be specific. Under that premise, any thoughts?
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:14 pm
GUYS! I was going through my English-version manga, trying to find the scene in which Hiei has the flashback. However, I went a little too far ahead, and wow, I struck gold.
Hiei DOES lie to Yusuke, right after the group finishes fighting Toguro the first time, he says "Yukina doesn't know, and there's no reason she should. We have different mothers, and she's an ice maiden...they're supposed to keep to their wintry realm."
But they DON'T have different mothers, because if they had different mothers then that implies that they have the same father, and Yukina never had a father. Hiei is the Forbidden child and the only male because Hina slept with a fire demon, right? So it's either a MAJOR translation error, or he's lying. In the show, I don't remember what he says exactly, so if someone finds it then you should post it. Also, if everyone already knew that and I'm making an a** of myself, please ignore it. sweatdrop
The fact that they're half siblings and yet twins also doesn't work. If the Koorime breed only every 100 years, then why would there be more than one egg in her system at the same time? If Koorime menstruate monthly like human women, then that means that Hiei must be at least one month older than Yukina, and that they're both under 100. I'm also curious as to whether Hiei will be able to reproduce asexually...since he IS part Koorime...however, he doesn't have a womb, so probably not. But then, asexual beings WOULDN'T menstruate, would they? What's the point? Of course, what's the point of having a body that reproduces EITHER asexually or sexually? AND, if Hiei's the child of an asexual being and a sexual being, wouldn't that make him some freaky hybrid? Would he be able to produce at ALL? Consider Ligers or Mules for reference.
Oh, and yeah, here's more on the actual topic; Hiei says right after the first fight with Toguro that "It's been two years since I learned she was missing...after the little fool snuck off to frolic with some animal. No doubt that's when the brokers got wind of her." So, if that's the flashback he had (which I remembering being in the anime while Yusuke was trying to get through Tarukane's stronghold, when Hiei catches the snowflake in his hand, and yet I can't seem to find that part in the manga. Correct me if I'm wrong) then it WAS when she was kidnapped, which is after Hiei got the Jagan, I think, and if the brokers got wind of her then, then she couldn't have been on Koorime island because how would they "get wind of her"? It's not like there was anyone on the island to tell them, and if there were, why Yukina? There were plenty of other Koorime there.
What I want to know is, Yukina was kidnapped for TWO YEARS--what the hell was Hiei doing during that time? Obviously he couldn't find her with the Jagan, but are we to believe that with all the low-class demons trafficking in the area (not to mention the Toguro brothers that were brought onto the scene in later times) he couldn't sense them at all? And, Koenma barely gets notice of it two years after the initial incident? Or, at least, he never took any action to save Yukina until Yusuke was trained and in his employ?
Anyway, those are my two cents. Oh, and did you guys notice that Hiei and Yukina's mom's name, Hina, is a combination of the first two letters of Hiei's name and the last two letters of Yukina's name? Maybe it's a coincidence, but it's a strange one. For that matter, what is their last name? It isn't Jaganshi--that comes from being someone holding the Jagan, and Hiei hasn't always had one. Is it Koorime? Yoko Kurama has a last name--Kurama. But Koorime would be like calling Yoko "Yoko Kitsune" as he's a fox demon, right? Sorry for the long post. ^^'
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:35 am
. . . That doesn't make any sense.
I'm not saying I think you're fibbing, but as far as I knew canon said Yukina was held by Tarukane for five entire years, not two. I'm skeptical that the age difference between chibi!Yukina of the flashback and adolescent!Yukina of the series is only two years, especially given that they're demons and probably age slower. Even five years is pushing it when it comes to having physically aged that much. And I'll accept that Hiei glimpsed her once, if she was not on the island (which he couldn't find), but it could not have been after he got the Jagan. I maintain that he had to have gotten the Jagan eye an extremely short time before the series begins, for the reasons I listed above.
As for why nobody did anything for five years, I blame bureaucratic error in Koenma's case and surmise that Hiei hadn't yet known she needed to be rescued; if he saw her once, and that was before she was captured, he wouldn't have known she was missing until he got his Jagan a few years later and actually found the island. That's really the only plausible explanation for why Hiei dithered around and didn't manage to find her for so long. We know it was already one of his goals to find her before he got the Jagan eye, but that may have merely dovetailed with his goal to find the island and kill everyone on it -- except for her.
And if my time frame for him getting the Jagan is correct, that means he spent probably a couple of months building his energy back up so that he'd be able to survive in the Makai again (sword-training with Shigure and whatnot), a couple more months finding the island, training, and getting sidetracked by the Artifacts of Darkness (assuming that was a sidetrack and not somehow a means to an end), and six or seven more months in Reikai jail or under constant supervision while Yuusuke trained with Genkai, until he was finally paroled.
Somehow, this makes the other continuity error actually almost work. Perhaps he was almost certain he had a sister, having seen her once and also remembering from when he was an infant, so he was able to tell Shigure -- but Rui confirmed it for him and told him her name, as well as that she was missing.
For the record, I'm not sure I agree that Yukina never had a father. As far as I used to understand it, koorime genes are generally dominant -- even if you commit a no-no and have sex, the child is still an ice maiden. If every time a koorime got restless and disobeyed that rule resulted in a distinctive offspring, there'd have been far more Forbidden Children on record than just Hiei. It's a pretty restrictive society, so it's absurd to assume that no one but Hina has done such a thing, but most women would probably not ever risk it if there were any chance they'd be found out in such an obvious way. My old theory used to run that perhaps fire demon genes were similarly dominant, and thus you can have twins with opposite characteristics. This solves the two-eggs problem also.
In any case, can you maybe provide me with manga scans or something? My dearth of YYH manga is probably to blame for a large portion of my disagreement -- much as I think my theory makes more sense, manga trumps us all. I also wouldn't mind untranslated manga -- I know someone who reads Japanese and who could tell me the exact translation, in case the two years thing was an error.
One last note: demons don't seem to have last names. Kurama is Kurama's first name -- "youko" is the name for his species, same as "koorime". The only reason he wore that name as though it were his first name is because he was the Youko -- the most famous, most dangerous of his race. "Kitsune" is used interchangeably with youko as far as I know, although I've seen people differentiate between the two and say that a kitsune is a spirit, while a youko is a demon, and the two are similar but not the same. In order to resolve that issue for sure, I'd have to look at untranslated manga and have the aforementioned Japanese-reading friend help me out.
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