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 Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 5:42 pm
Philosophy is something that really interests me, and I was just thinking lately of this sort of theory that I have. What if everything that we claim to exist, all of these "tangible things" and these people, places, and things, what if they all weren't really there? What if the only thing that truly exists is the souls of these people and the world that they go to after they die? Like, Hell and Heaven are these two parts of this "real world" and God created the world to be able to place souls accordingly, and he wants to be able to place them all in Heaven. This would mean that the only things that are really "real" are everything in life that isn't tangible? (thoughts, emotions, ideas, etc.) Discuss your thoughts. EDIT: Fushigi na Butterfly adds a good point. Fushigi na Butterfly Technically, from a psychological point of view, the only world that actually exists is the one that's in our head. By the time we actually perceive anything, it's gone through so many changes and processes that it's really nothing like what's actually out there. Color for example. Color doesn't actually exist. It's the light waves bouncing off of objects as transformed by our cornea and lens, and then as transduced by the cells in the retina, and then as interpreted by the neurons firing in the occipital lobe. For some reason, when a photon of 680 nm reaches the eye, it triggers a specific neural pattern that causes us to "see" the color "red." But that color doesn't actually exist out in the real world. -shrug-
So yeah, wrap your head around that. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:50 pm
So... like the Matrix gone spiritual. How do explain us interacting, if your theory is indeed true? How do I see my freinds, or my laptop in front of me?
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 9:03 pm
Technically, from a psychological point of view, the only world that actually exists is the one that's in our head. By the time we actually perceive anything, it's gone through so many changes and processes that it's really nothing like what's actually out there. Color for example. Color doesn't actually exist. It's the light waves bouncing off of objects as transformed by our cornea and lens, and then as transduced by the cells in the retina, and then as interpreted by the neurons firing in the occipital lobe. For some reason, when a photon of 680 nm reaches the eye, it triggers a specific neural pattern that causes us to "see" the color "red." But that color doesn't actually exist out in the real world. -shrug-
So yeah, wrap your head around that. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:14 am
Interesting thought, but really hard to wrap my mind around. To simplify it for myself, I'll take this question in terms of planar existance. Everything on each of the three planes - Heaven, Hell and Earth - exists. Earth is merely the material plane, and as such, it's much more restricting. We can't see or feel or interact with the other two, even with the knowledge that they're there. So, to say, Earth is the least "real" of them all, given that at some point every soul here is going to cross over to one or the other. Those beings already IN one of the spiritual planes can see everything that goes on here in the material world, and can influence what happens. To us at this moment, Earth is as "real" as we can manage, until we're able to shed the physical shell holding us back from the spiritual planes. Hopefully this made sense to someone other than me. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:02 am
A Different Light So... like the Matrix gone spiritual. How do explain us interacting, if your theory is indeed true? How do I see my friends, or my laptop in front of me? The only explanation I can offer is God. As for the laptop? Also not really there. Another thought: The universe did not just come from nothing. The "Big Bang Theory" is a theory that tells how it expanded, not how that material came to exist. I don't know of a theory that explains how everything may have come into existence. So, why couldn't it all just be the intricate work of God in our minds that has led us to believe that all of this is really here? He can, after all, do anything. ...Now I realize that, leaving you with that, you may ask something to the effect of, "Okay, so where would Heaven and Hell originate from?" My answer would consist of something like, "They were always there, they never begin and they never end. It's eternity." P.S. @A Different Light: You spelled "friends" wrong in your post... I corrected it in the above quote... xd Sorry about that... I'm a grammar nazi, but I do my best to be nice about it. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:04 am
@ryuu_chan: Your ideas do make sense to someone other than yourself. 4laugh But I might disagree because I'm trying to debate on the side that Earth doesn't actually exist...
@Fushigi na Butterfly: Thank you for adding that, it added a sort of key point to my post. Do you mind if I put that into the first post?
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:48 am
s0prano42_x3 ...Now I realize that, leaving you with that, you may ask something to the effect of, "Okay, so where would Heaven and Hell originate from?" My answer would consist of something like, "They were always there, they never begin and they never end. It's eternity."
And you can quote me on anything I say and add it wherever you want. 3nodding That goes for this guild and the rest of Gaia. 3nodding
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:58 am
Fushigi na Butterfly s0prano42_x3 ...Now I realize that, leaving you with that, you may ask something to the effect of, "Okay, so where would Heaven and Hell originate from?" My answer would consist of something like, "They were always there, they never begin and they never end. It's eternity." Except not. Heaven has a beginning because it was created. "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth ..." Remember that bit??
And you can quote me on anything I say and add it wherever you want. 3nodding That goes for this guild and the rest of Gaia. 3nodding Yeah, you're right... Then where did the idea of time come from? Couldn't God have made them to exist forever, in past and present? Also, couldn't God have made Earth existent for us even though it wasn't really part of the "existing world" (i.e. Heaven, Hell)?
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 12:10 pm
Rene Descartes thought of this about 400 years ago. Ever heard "I think, therefore I am"?
It's a possibility. One of the few reasons why I remain a weak atheist is that I can't totally trust my senses.
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:14 pm
s0prano42_x3 Fushigi na Butterfly s0prano42_x3 ...Now I realize that, leaving you with that, you may ask something to the effect of, "Okay, so where would Heaven and Hell originate from?" My answer would consist of something like, "They were always there, they never begin and they never end. It's eternity." Except not. Heaven has a beginning because it was created. "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth ..." Remember that bit??
And you can quote me on anything I say and add it wherever you want. 3nodding That goes for this guild and the rest of Gaia. 3nodding Yeah, you're right... Then where did the idea of time come from? Couldn't God have made them to exist forever, in past and present? Also, couldn't God have made Earth existent for us even though it wasn't really part of the "existing world" (i.e. Heaven, Hell)?
@Lethkhar: Yeah. You can even have perception without an external stimuli- dreaming, hallucinations, things like that. 3nodding
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 3:31 am
s0prano42_x3 Another thought: The universe did not just come from nothing. The "Big Bang Theory" is a theory that tells how it expanded, not how that material came to exist. I don't know of a theory that explains how everything may have come into existence. So, why couldn't it all just be the intricate work of God in our minds that has led us to believe that all of this is really here? He can, after all, do anything. Well. My own little theory is probably just as far fetch'd as the rest of them. I believe that the "void", or absence of matter (think of a vacuum), imploded on itself oneday. Somehow, (don't ask me how exactly, it's just a silly little thing I came up with) the universe and matter came from the implosion. A force was also created from the implosion, something that I like to call Netjer ...but I think what you call the Holy Spirit is pretty much the same thing. This force can organize matter, put it where it wants to, set evolution and time into motion, and is the brain of everything. Now xD, on to the actual topic. Our only "reality" is what we recieve through our senses. However, our senses can be tricked, and rather easily so. It is quite possible that your God or a God could be setting up this world of souls to make it look like a ...physical place, let's call it. Now I don't see the reasoning behind why any deity would choose to do such a thing, but I guess I'd have to be the actual God behind it to understand, no?
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:43 am
s0prano42_x3 @ryuu_chan: Your ideas do make sense to someone other than yourself. 4laugh But I might disagree because I'm trying to debate on the side that Earth doesn't actually exist... Well, if we're thinking spiritual Matrix, remember that everyone IN the Matrix thought that this was the "real" world. Do you remember the scene in the first one where um... what's-his-name was meeting with the agent? They're at a restaurant and he starts out with "I know this steak isn't real..." and goes on to describe what's happening to make it seem that it IS real? To us, the material plane IS real. We can touch and see and smell and taste... even if it's not there. So, since this plane is all our human bodies are capable of interacting with, this is the only "real" place for us right at this moment. I think that once we cross over, Earth will definitely become something like the Matrix... something that we half-remember, that we can interact with, but something that is ultimately less than real. Fushigi na Butterfly Except not. Heaven has a beginning because it was created. "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth ..." Remember that bit?? Or, there's always that. God created Earth and it IS real. Take your pick. heart And a complete sidenote... Fushigi na Butterfly Time is a human concept to explain what happens when something moves from one place to another. Technically, time doesn't exist either- just movement (the earth moving around the sun, etc.). Time was perhaps invented for humans so that everything didn't happen at once and overload our fragile little brains. God's time is both faster and slower than ours. He sees everything - past, present AND future - at the same time. Humans minds were NOT wired for things like that. *grin*
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 1:06 pm
ryuu_chan Well, if we're thinking spiritual Matrix, remember that everyone IN the Matrix thought that this was the "real" world. Do you remember the scene in the first one where um... what's-his-name was meeting with the agent? They're at a restaurant and he starts out with "I know this steak isn't real..." and goes on to describe what's happening to make it seem that it IS real? To us, the material plane IS real. We can touch and see and smell and taste... even if it's not there. So, since this plane is all our human bodies are capable of interacting with, this is the only "real" place for us right at this moment. I think that once we cross over, Earth will definitely become something like the Matrix... something that we half-remember, that we can interact with, but something that is ultimately less than real. ...I suppose I should watch the Matrix... xd But it does sort of put things in perspective, doesn't it? Like, with what it'll feel like spending an eternity somewhere completely different. Even if everything here is real, it wouldn't seem so because... well... ETERNITY! Haha. This discussion is really interesting... I hope people keep posting stuff about it! mrgreen
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 1:51 pm
My perspctive on this is quite simple. Being an atheist, I Godless stance on it. It is simply that i don't care if the world around me is real or a fabrication by some God. Or even a fabrication of my own mind. What matters is that it's real for me. I may be in a coma on some distant planet or plane in actuality and my mind may be creating this entire world for me. I don't care. The world is real to what i can experience, it's rules apply and it's history is real. To me, that is. Quote: P.S. @A Different Light: You spelled "friends" wrong in your post... I corrected it in the above quote... I xd Sorry about that... I'm a grammar nazi, but I do my best to be nice about it. sweatdrop Spelling is seperate from grammar. You corrected my spelling. You called yourself a grammar nazi. Psh. P.S.: You should certainly see hte Matrix! A classic!
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:22 pm
A Different Light Spelling is seperate from grammar. You corrected my spelling. You called yourself a grammar nazi. Psh. Sorry! sweatdrop I mean, SPELLING/GRAMMAR nazi. stressed And that's what I think about, too, that it matters to me if it's real or fake, I just thought it was an interesting perspective to share.
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