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 Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:23 am
Disclaimer: This thread is not intended to support any one religious view, including atheism. The opinions expressed in this thread will be strictly for philosophical purposes and any god-bashing, flaming, or other violation of ToS, including treating others disrespectfully will not be tolerated. All views on the subject will be given equal respect and consideration, upon penalty of the thread closing.
Okay, so I built this thread on a shaky and contoversial topic. But based on what I have seen so far in this forum and the guild, I think this will work.
One of the biggest questions philosophy asks is that of "What is God?" Understand that 'God' does not refer to any specific religious deity, Christian or otherwise. 'God' is a loose concept with a hundred thousand different definitions to accompany it. There are arguments for God's existence and arguments against it. These are a few of them:
For
The Ontological Argument- St Anselm (Christian)
The very fact that we can conceive of a perfect being must mean that one can exist. Thus, God exists because we have the ability to comprehend him.
The Leap of Faith -Soren Kierkegaard (Christian)
God is exactly what the human mind cannot understand. He is the eternal "unknown", whom we must trust blindly in order to live our lives with meaning and spiritual depth.
The Babelfish - Douglas Adams
God exists solely on faith. If he is proven in any way, shape or form, this proof will deny faith and he will cease to exist.
The Teleological Argument, also known as Intelligent Design
The complexity of the world could not have happened by chance. The intricate workings of even the smallest organism have to have been directed by some Intelligent Designer, or, God. The incredible spectrum of our world could not have come about by chance.
The Cosmological Argument - St. Thomas Aquinas
God directed the creation of the universe-- he is the true origin, the 'prime mover' of everything. The first cause of the chain of cause and effect.
Against
God is Dead - Friedrich Neitzsche
Humans no longer have the capability to believe in God because we no longer have the ability to understand cosmic order and all of what he is. Without belief, he is destroyed.
The Problem of Evil
Since evil exists and life is inherently unfair, a benevolent and all-powerful God cannot exist.
Evolution - Charles Darwin
Though he never rejected God, Darwin's discoveries of evolution defy the traditional belief that God created man in his own image. If man evolved from single-celled organisms then it would seem that God had no hand in any of it.
Most of these arguments have a Christian leaning. I apologize for my limited knowledge. If you want to add something here, post it and I will be happy to add it.
Clearly, there has been a huge debate over a supreme being for some time. What is God? Does he exist? These are questions that have plagued us since humanity began. Ultimately, it is the question of what meaning can be put to life, and what sort of spiritual life, if any, exists.
So what do YOU think?
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:51 am
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:21 am
I don't really believe in "God" (maybe godS or goddessES - but not a singular, male, GOD) - I mostly go nihilist because it leaves the options open.
((p.s. What is your name? What is your quest? What is the capital of Assyria?))
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 11:44 am
i like the picture you used, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, classic.
anyway, to start, i'm pagan so anything i say is not in support of the biblical faiths, just things i've noted. to see if i can get people thinking, i'm just going to make comment on the idea of "Evil" in the world as proof god doesn't exist and the idea of the god be "good." originally god was a being of total neutrality. neither good nor evil. my argument here is to prove that. first bit of proof, good is the all creator, nothing exists with out him. so he created things that were good, but as good and evil are opposites, they must both exist, so god had to as well created thing that were evil. a truly benevolent being, as Christianity dictates, would not do such a thing. but that's partly because Christianity is blind to the idea of opposites can't exist with out the other, good and evil, hot and cold, etc.
another example is the idea that Lucifer is pure evil, when in fact he is not. he was an angel take over by pride and cast down to hell as punishment his new job, as dictated by God, was to be the tempter of mortals and basically the management of Hell. things considered evil, made so by god. as to disprove this, many would say be he created Jesus, a healer. well, a god of neutrality would keep the balance, he gave the mortals a means of being damned and a means of being "saved."
not really well organized, but if you think about it a while, you should get the jist of what i'm saying, if you can't, then please don't respond to my post.
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:14 pm
I'm pretty sure I know what you mean. Good couldn't exist without evil... without contrast, how could we recognize what is good?
A neutral God makes much more sense to me. But at the same time, a lot of faith wavers when suddenly one can't trust their faith to do what is good. For example, if one was to say that God has a hand in both good and evil, then some might suggest that the Jewish God allowed the Holocaust to happen. Kindof hard to have faith in something like that, isn't it? Well, not without being scared shitless at the same time. Sort of like how they were afraid of the Mayan Gods in ancient days.
Is God something we should have to fear? It he/she/it/they something we should be able to trust?
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 11:41 am
You see I always think the floor in St Anslem's argument is that we actually cannot conceive a perfect being, one utterly without sin, I mean - we can form all the write words and attribute to Him a thousand different delightfully contrasting adjectives: omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, transcendent, immanent - but can anyone really comprehend that? After all we have no example to draw from (yeah I know that was his argument and all but it can be turned against him...) and I for one just can't envision a being like that.
And afterall, to comprehend and understand is far too close to proof...
*Feels cryptic.*
I hate the intelligent design argument: I mean a watch, in comparison to the universe, is ridiculously simple. Something can only be complex where it is relative.
Bah - first cause = crap. Sorry to be so dismissive but hello - Aquinas? Did you consider who caused the 'prime mover'?
*Sigh* It's hard to believe I'm not an atheist...
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 4:06 pm
[double] [NEGATiiVE] I don't really believe in "God" (maybe godS or goddessES - but not a singular, male, GOD) - I mostly go nihilist because it leaves the options open. ((p.s. What is your name? What is your quest? What is the capital of Assyria?))
Wait - how does nihilism leave options open? I would imagine that the concept that the universe is utterly without point or purpose rather shuts off both higher morality principles and any sort of 'divine plan' idea...
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:47 am
[The.First.Law] [double] [NEGATiiVE] I don't really believe in "God" (maybe godS or goddessES - but not a singular, male, GOD) - I mostly go nihilist because it leaves the options open. ((p.s. What is your name? What is your quest? What is the capital of Assyria?))
Wait - how does nihilism leave options open? I would imagine that the concept that the universe is utterly without point or purpose rather shuts off both higher morality principles and any sort of 'divine plan' idea...Enter Flame
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we're all
It's harder to explain that with just that concept. When you get down to it, nihilism is really just a complex and annoying branch of agnosticism. To which case, it leaves options open - there are a lot more technicalities in the different "beliefs" of the two groups - but there is nothing that says a nihilist is an atheist; it's more of an incapability to prove that there is a divine power (or if you are an extremist - ANYTHING for that matter), but since morality is based off the "plausible deity" then there is no point in life since it cannot be proven - which really just causes this aggravating cycle.
mad here
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Fade to Black
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