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 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:03 pm
This guild was made for a reason, and that is to discuss Kira. But why? There are so many other characters that could be worshipped. What about L, the one who tried to save the world as it is? Or Near, or Mello? Even Light's father? Mikami Teru?
The reason that this guild was made to worship was because Kira is truly justice. He is truly a leader worth following. Look at what he has done: he started out killing criminals because he was bored. Only when he was threatened with being arrested did he truly become serious, and only for a while. Teaming up with L was only a game, that Kira ended up winning. He can control the others just by telling them who he is. He wants to create a world where there is only peace, and yet these ignorant fools stand in his way only to be killed, as is expected. Why would someone want to preserve such a world full of evil? Because its "the right thing to do"?
Kira is the only right. He is justice. He is Right. The police know that, and this is the reason they follow him. This is the reason we follow him. Once he is accepted by the whole word, the great things he does will only turn into greater things. One may think that I am obsessed, but I'm not. I only believe in what's right. What's best. Maybe one day the teachings of Kira will be passed on to later generations that will be able to put Kira out there, and turn this into reality.
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:36 pm
Insightful. The preservation of a rotten world is pretty senseless. However, I think I am one of those, put time to good use people, make the change yourself. Police would follow Kira without fervor simply because the police are incompetent. they waste time, and suspects do not get caught in time. With someone making an attempt to do their job, they'd stand aside with no ail. Police i feel are those that have to be told what to do. With this on going occurrence, its no wonder Yagami Raito was forced to act so quickly. I personally find Raito interesting. I'm also sure that under different circumstances him as well as L would have been good friends, seemingly since their views don't differ too much. In fact they are very much alike. I personally think L was right in saying that Kira was holding the world hostage. I think also that with that kind of power madness could not be avoided, this is true because Raito took to the extremity of even willfully sacrificing his own family. (which is true he didn't initially do, but he'd thought of it) I think power like that is corruption. Corruption leads to tyranny, this is where I support L.
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W3-Interrupt-This-Pr0gram Crew
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:19 pm
But the reality of the situation is, that people won't change unless someone pushes them to. Sometimes when people are pushed to, they rebel and go back to the lives they are so used to leading, which is why ruling with total discipline is ideal. One must rule with fear in order to rule at all, because without that fear instilled in people, they will not learn to obey, and chaos will ultimately ensue.
There is a quote that I believe has played a part in this.
The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced.
- Frank Zappa
This quote not only applies to the U.S, but the entire world. One person could commit a crime such as murder and get a life sentence, and another person that committed the same crime could get even less. However, with the Death Note in Kira's hands, everyone's punishment is the same. It is fair, and true.
And as for L, I too think that they could have been friends had a different situation occurred. They think alike, and L was right in saying that Kira was holding the world hostage, becauase he is. What happens in a hostage situation? Innocents are held at the mercy of someone, and in that, the criminal holding them have an advantage over higher authority that could stop him. The people of the world are being held hostage by Kira so that Kira can show the world what he is capable of, and once again, have what he wants done without question.
I will give you that point of corruption, however, there is another quote by Near that I would like to share with you.
"Investigations are based upon assumptions. If you're wrong, you just have to simply say 'sorry'."
The basic tactic used by them, as used by our police force, is "shoot now, ask questions later". That is also corrupt, is it not? Everyone who has power, from the manager at McDonalds to the president himself, are corrupt.
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:18 pm
Yay, discussion!
So, don't get me wrong, i love Kira, but this is for discussions sake. Please don't hate me for having different opinions.
In reading all of the posts so far, i agree somewhat with what i've seen...but..
People don't always need to be pushed by death or heartache to change. Kira was not only feared, but Loved by those who he saved by "punishing" countless ciminals. You can rule by love and trust, not only fear. Its gaining that love that is hard. Fear is not needed. Unless you are a completely unlikable person...Think of all the corrupt people who have ruled by trust and love from thier people? the deceit they use to lure them into a false sence of security, so that they obey the ruler. You don't think enough of people, and thats where Kira went wrong.
Ruling with fear can make people angry enough to rebel, at a high force as well. Those who rule with fear only try to cover up thier own fear. Its not always the best way.
Ruling with total discipline is only ideal if you want your empire or country to eventually crumble and fall apart. Kira is a lot like Hitler, and look what happened to him.
Corruption cannot defeat corruption, only breed it in insatiable, unstoppable numbers.
Not everyones punishment is the same. Kira made people have long, painful deaths, to commit suicide, burning, just so he could test his powers, while others with seemingly less horrable crimes simlply died of heart attack. Not fair, if you think about it.
People began assuming that Kira wanted to purify the world, when in reality, he was doing it all along for his own gain. Not for justice. He trated it as a game, playing to keep L, Near, Mello, and the SPK off his tail....
You compared Kira to a criminal, holding hostages to show what he is capable of, not to scare them into obeying for justice, but to scare them into obeying HIS command, because after all, he is Kami.
"shoot not, ask questions later" Is not corrupt. It is a method to decide if someone actually comited a crime, so that an innocent life isnt waisted. If you kill someone who was framed, the real criminal gets away to do it again, right?
Kira is a dictator, not a god, and thats why I love him.
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:47 am
There is a very big difference between Kira and Hitler, and it is this: Hitler, as well as the other Germans, were upset because they had just lost World War 1 and the Treaty of Versailles, which caused Germany to end the war, take full responsibility for starting it, disarm, be cut up into territories and pay the countries involved for their losses. They needed a scapegoat to blame for them surrendering and it was the Jews, mentally/physically challenged, homosexuals, gypsies, and anyone else not accepted by society. So they decided to stop buying from Jewish stores, destroy all of their synagogues, gather them into ghettos, and ultimately kill them off.
There is the difference. For Hitler, it was anyone of a group he didn't like was killed off. For Kira, it was those who participated in a crime that actually happened. He didn't kill for the pleasure of it, unless one counts the beginning where he tested his powers, and even then he killed criminals. The criminals killed, however, were those he saw commit crimes with his own eyes.
And for your opinion of saying that people don't always change because of death, in my own opinion, I don't think that's neccesarily true. For example, and correct me if I'm wrong, these 20-year-olds with records a mile long that consist of robbery, car-jacking, murder, violation of probation, etc etc the list goes on. These guys will keep getting away with whatever the hell they want with only having to serve a few years in jail at a time. And the time in jail only makes them stronger.
Another example, there was a special on the most dangerous gang in the world (MS-13). What they do to these gangsters that get caught here in the U.S, they are taken back to their homeland (ex: Honduras, El Salvador), given a criminal record, and then freed. That's it. This is the punishment they pay for smuggling drugs, human traficking, illegal sales on the black market, assasinations for hire, etc etc. And they won't quit, because quitting is suicide. They come back to the U.S and do it all over again.
As for Kira being loved, its true, because that's how others follow with the fear of death instilled in them. However, ones that have seen crimes and seen what they've done, follow loyally and that is where you get the followers. However, if Kira did NOT kill, would he have been noticed? No, he would've just been a smart college kid whose father is a police officer, and most likely would've become a police officer himself and eventually killed in action. Kira thought plenty of people, and this is where Takada and Mikami came in. He knew their capabilities and used them to his own advantage.
Ruling with fear can anger people, but ruling with the fear of death in one's followers is perfect. Why is that? Because they know what one is capable of and will not step out of line.
And the only reason Kira killed people differently was so that their deaths would not look suspicious. Example: Takada died burning, and L's team decided that since she was locked in the back of a truck with a motorcycle nearby, the tank had caught fire and that is how she died. It may not be fair, but it is strategic.
"Shoot now, ask questions later" is a very bad concept in my opinion. Why is that? There was a teenager on drugs in my neighborhood, thretening people. So the police decided since he had a gun, they could not handle it and called the S.W.A.T team in. They shot and killed him. Guess what? The teen was using a toy gun. He was not, in fact, a threat at all. And what if it had been someone else? Before the S.W.A.T team came, another neighbor of mine was walking down the street at the time, and the police told him to freeze. He kept walking, not knowing what was going on, and they shot at him, getting him in the side. My little brother carries around a toy gun because it is his favorite. What if he was the one who was shot? What then? Would the concept have protected the police from being wrong? No, because an innocent life would have been lost.
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:35 pm
Ok, well i see your point on many things, but most of my opinions stil stand (I will elaborate later, as i am short on time @.@)
but the whole thing about shoot now ask later, in your first post you made a typo that i didn't realize was a typo sweatdrop You typed "Shoot not, ask questions later", which i thaught meant something else....but now that i know you mean "Shoot Now, ask later" I completely agree. its a rediculous way of handling things and has cost the lives of countless innocents.
Gomen nasai ^^;;; *feels dumb*
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:22 pm
XxAmaneMisaxX Ok, well i see your point on many things, but most of my opinions stil stand (I will elaborate later, as i am short on time @.@)
but the whole thing about shoot now ask later, in your first post you made a typo that i didn't realize was a typo sweatdrop You typed "Shoot not, ask questions later", which i thaught meant something else....but now that i know you mean "Shoot Now, ask later" I completely agree. its a rediculous way of handling things and has cost the lives of countless innocents.
Gomen nasai ^^;;; *feels dumb* No problem ^^; that's my fault for not correcting my mistake.
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:36 pm
Very good points you both have seemed to make and If I do say so myself being most humble, I agree with them. I guess you could say I'm a mediator maybe like Ryuk it's easy to take no sides, I agree with both. It is within human nature for every one mortal to be tyrant in their own aspect. no one is perfect, and I like the fact that at some points, when guilt settles in Raito knows he's at fault too. L's even at fault using almost any means necessary to give himself edge. Tit for tat. Light and L are one in the same just with a different take on justice. Their ideals for a more perfect world are basically the same. I'm sure that under different circumstances the two would be an ultimate shield for the world.
My favorite quote on the entire death note series, and or manage was on made especially by Ryuk, meant for Raito.
After justice ensues it's purpose, Raito would be the only '******** up' person left. lol
Death may not solve all problems, I do believe, however.... those who rule with kindness, forgive too easily. thus mistakes will occur rapidly, with the thought in mind. "Oh he loves his people, he'll forgive us if we sin..." This is true by means directed toward god himself, people live life of sin, with a reliance that they'd be saved if the asked to be. gods the life line. I agree with Kira ruling with an iron fist, and I do believe that the real revelation will be a heart turning impact. I strongly believe that those who fear their 'god' whom ever they presume him to be, the less chances of fatel error occur. haha Go kira, go L whoot lmao (I'm twisted)
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W3-Interrupt-This-Pr0gram Crew
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:04 pm
((Sorry to interrupt this flow of debate, but... You spelled "rotten" wrong on your guild home page. o-o' K, I'll leave you be. But I think... I'm for Kira. Although I'm not against L, he was changing things for the better so seldom-ly that it was only after Kira came about that people began to know him. I guess I'm up for more active progress. *shrug* Plus, evilness in the same bout as justice is awesome~))
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:36 pm
CrimsonRainX ((Sorry to interrupt this flow of debate, but... You spelled "rotten" wrong on your guild home page. o-o' K, I'll leave you be. But I think... I'm for Kira. Although I'm not against L, he was changing things for the better so seldom-ly that it was only after Kira came about that people began to know him. I guess I'm up for more active progress. *shrug* Plus, evilness in the same bout as justice is awesome~))
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W3-Interrupt-This-Pr0gram Crew
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:59 pm
I'm actually a bit of a Mikami Teru sort of person when it comes to judging the god and the bad. Why should we allow people like rapists and murderers run free? For them, there is no second chance, as their is only the good people, and the bad people. Chances are, a bad person is bound to return to their old habits in one way or another, while Good people are good and should continue living that way, in harmony. That's the way it should be, yes?
That's why Kira's a good thing. Now, people have told me I'm crazy for being Pro-Kira. "That's stupid." They would say "Nobody should play God." But, I guess they don't see it. Is murder a bad thing? Yes. But if it's for the right cause, then Hell, I'd use the Death Note. The only reason I wouldn't is fear of that...nothingness, you know?
I guess people say he's wrong because he murdered without asking. But, the question is: Isn't that what YOU'D do? I'm sure that they would be surprised with themselves if they had the chance.
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:18 pm
Yuki of Nightmares This guild was made for a reason, and that is to discuss Kira. But why? There are so many other characters that could be worshipped. What about L, the one who tried to save the world as it is? Or Near, or Mello? Even Light's father? Mikami Teru?
The reason that this guild was made to worship was because Kira is truly justice. He is truly a leader worth following. Look at what he has done: he started out killing criminals because he was bored. Only when he was threatened with being arrested did he truly become serious, and only for a while. Teaming up with L was only a game, that Kira ended up winning. He can control the others just by telling them who he is. He wants to create a world where there is only peace, and yet these ignorant fools stand in his way only to be killed, as is expected. Why would someone want to preserve such a world full of evil? Because its "the right thing to do"?
Kira is the only right. He is justice. He is Right. The police know that, and this is the reason they follow him. This is the reason we follow him. Once he is accepted by the whole word, the great things he does will only turn into greater things. One may think that I am obsessed, but I'm not. I only believe in what's right. What's best. Maybe one day the teachings of Kira will be passed on to later generations that will be able to put Kira out there, and turn this into reality. I truly wish kira was a reality was well if only if only my friend
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:30 am
Jask X Yuki of Nightmares This guild was made for a reason, and that is to discuss Kira. But why? There are so many other characters that could be worshipped. What about L, the one who tried to save the world as it is? Or Near, or Mello? Even Light's father? Mikami Teru?
The reason that this guild was made to worship was because Kira is truly justice. He is truly a leader worth following. Look at what he has done: he started out killing criminals because he was bored. Only when he was threatened with being arrested did he truly become serious, and only for a while. Teaming up with L was only a game, that Kira ended up winning. He can control the others just by telling them who he is. He wants to create a world where there is only peace, and yet these ignorant fools stand in his way only to be killed, as is expected. Why would someone want to preserve such a world full of evil? Because its "the right thing to do"?
Kira is the only right. He is justice. He is Right. The police know that, and this is the reason they follow him. This is the reason we follow him. Once he is accepted by the whole word, the great things he does will only turn into greater things. One may think that I am obsessed, but I'm not. I only believe in what's right. What's best. Maybe one day the teachings of Kira will be passed on to later generations that will be able to put Kira out there, and turn this into reality. I truly wish kira was a reality was well if only if only my friend me too emo
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:59 am
So, just for the record, i think trying really hard not to compare Kira to Hitler is silly...Just because they both killed on a mass scale, murdering people they deemed unfit for a perfect society. The reasons may be different, but they chose certain groups of people to kill off for "the better of mankind". Granted Kira is MUCH MUCH better than Hitler, and I would use a Death note to kill hitler slowly and painfully ANY DAY...this is the fact.
I am with pervert, even though Mikami just....irked me alot...Especially his mistake in the end... But extreem criminals, murderers and rapists I believe should NOT be set free...I wish Kira WAS real, to help all the victims of rape and murder, or battery....Petty people like robbers don't even deserve to exist because they are rediculous...Save the heart attack for them....Rapists and murderers deserve a slower, lingering death....Which is why I dont think Kiras punishment is fair. Being the same for everyone lets people off easy.
If I had a death note...I honestly don't think i'd be strong enough to use it for the means of justice...Im fairly weak hearted, so i think i'd try to find someone Like Kira, who was strong enough, had the drive, and not the corruption that would make them use it to kill people they just don't like...Like bullies or mean teachers.....The Death Note woul have to be in the hands of someone almost exactly like Light, or L even, or no one at all. Because then they would just become a petty murderer.
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:09 am
XxAmaneMisaxX So, just for the record, i think trying really hard not to compare Kira to Hitler is silly...Just because they both killed on a mass scale, murdering people they deemed unfit for a perfect society. The reasons may be different, but they chose certain groups of people to kill off for "the better of mankind". Granted Kira is MUCH MUCH better than Hitler, and I would use a Death note to kill hitler slowly and painfully ANY DAY...this is the fact.
I am with pervert, even though Mikami just....irked me alot...Especially his mistake in the end... But extreem criminals, murderers and rapists I believe should NOT be set free...I wish Kira WAS real, to help all the victims of rape and murder, or battery....Petty people like robbers don't even deserve to exist because they are rediculous...Save the heart attack for them....Rapists and murderers deserve a slower, lingering death....Which is why I dont think Kiras punishment is fair. Being the same for everyone lets people off easy.
If I had a death note...I honestly don't think i'd be strong enough to use it for the means of justice...Im fairly weak hearted, so i think i'd try to find someone Like Kira, who was strong enough, had the drive, and not the corruption that would make them use it to kill people they just don't like...Like bullies or mean teachers.....The Death Note woul have to be in the hands of someone almost exactly like Light, or L even, or no one at all. Because then they would just become a petty murderer.
That is true about the Hilter/Kira thing. And I'm with Pervert too, however what mistake are you reffering to? When he revealed that Light was Kira? If so, I do hate him for that, but he did distract them for Light to escape.
I agree with him not being fair about the deaths, now that you put it like that. For example in the Death Note movie when Light killed that murderer with a simple heart attack, that kind of made me mad. If I had a Death Note, I know exactly what I'd do with it. I wouldn't hesitate to do it either.
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