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2 Be Continued___

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:37 am


In a Time magazine from April (yeah, that was a long time ago but oh well), the author talked about courses that teach only the Bible in public schools. He said that the Bible should be taught in public schools because it is the "most influential book ever written." He also goes on to say that literature from the Western culture make allusions to the Bible, such as Shakespeare's plays and The Old Man and the Sea, and a person has to understand the Bible to understand the "ideas and rhetoric that have helped drive US history." He believes that as long as teachers "teach it, not preach it", then constitutionally it's okay.
Personally, I'm against the Bible being taught in public schools. This is basically establishing Christianity as the legitimate government religion. Why? Because there are no discussions about the Lotus Sutra classes, or the Koran classes, and other religious writings that are somewhat neccessary to understand the writings from a particular culture.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:30 am


These may not be taught because they may not be influential to other literature. There are many great fiction writers that we never read in schools, because it didn't have the impact that the ones we do read had.

I think that it should be taught, but as what it is. As a work of literature. Not as the divine truth. (Whether the teacher, students...etc, think that it is or not) If it is a public school it can be taught as a work of literature that affected many other works.

Because you do see it alluded to all over the place, in the novels and short stories we have to read.

This said it may be a little dry and a little long. Are we talking parts of it, those that are most quoted, or are we talking the whole thing? This asked I also would like to know if you are saying they teach this in highschools or colleges?

If this is in college it is the student's choice whether to take a specific course or not.

If it is in highschool, I doubt they have the time to teach it. I've started reading it. It was like a very bad soap opera, in my opinion, and it was just difficult to read. I very much doubt that highschool students would understand it.

Drucillia
Vice Captain


writercxvii
Captain

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:32 am


No. It shouldn't be. Because, I'd like to point something out. The Bible is the most influential book in Western literature? Which is why the Bible was influenced by the Torah, right? Now, you can say that "well, it's the the first five books of the Bible, so it didn't really influence it..." but that's bullshit. It's like saying that the first five chapters of a book don't have any effect on the rest of the book. Also, every single story up until the end of the Gospels is about Jews. So...yeah. Sorry about that rant.

Anyway, it shouldn't be taught at a high school level. At this level, they can easliy just explain the allusions, and then move on. Furthermore, it's impossible to teach it in a way that won't offend somebody-even if you just say that "some people believe it's the truth", you're going to get uber-Christians saying "OMG! It's the Truth! How dare you suggest that it might not be! BLASPHEMY!!!1!". You can't teach it in a non-offensive way on this level. And, making it a required class would piss people off and would be way to close to establishing a state religion if you don't make students learn about every single religion. But, if you make it a mandatory class, only Christians are likely to take it, which would defeat the purpose. Simple solution: Do it in college, and only in college. That would save time.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:36 am


writercxvii
Anyway, it shouldn't be taught at a high school level. At this level, they can easliy just explain the allusions, and then move on. Furthermore, it's impossible to teach it in a way that won't offend somebody-even if you just say that "some people believe it's the truth", you're going to get uber-Christians saying "OMG! It's the Truth! How dare you suggest that it might not be! BLASPHEMY!!!1!". You can't teach it in a non-offensive way on this level. And, making it a required class would piss people off and would be way to close to establishing a state religion if you don't make students learn about every single religion. But, if you make it a mandatory class, only Christians are likely to take it, which would defeat the purpose. Simple solution: Do it in college, and only in college. That would save time.


I was wondering if we were talking about college or highschool. If it's college it should totally be offered, but...highschool...it's too long and boring...and most of it doesn't affect other literature. There are just some parts.

writer's edit: clear enough for you now?

Drucillia's edit: I meant which is the original poster talking about.

Drucillia
Vice Captain


Cougar Draven
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:50 am


Clearly, we're all pretty much going to say "College only" with regards to this. And I agree, although I think I could handle teaching the Bible.

Why? Because people have seen what I do to people who call me blasphemous.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:10 am


From the examples given by the author, I'm guessing that they're mainly teaching excerpts from the New Testament.
The author talks about teaching the Bible in public high schools, and talks about how there are already a few high schools who teach the Bible in an elective class. His justification is that student's would enjoy it much more if students figured out the allusions themselves.

2 Be Continued___


Drucillia
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:27 pm


I gotta say, I haven't read the whole bible and I get a lot of the allusions on my own. Now, I must say, many, many years of Catholic schools and church on Sundays may be the reasoning behind this; but I know intelligent non-Christians who also get the allusions. If you really weren't getting it you could always do what I would....

GOOGLE IT!

Yes, I know I'm a google-whore...but still, it's a doable option. I'm sure you can find the passage you need explained.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:10 pm


Public schools? No. Private schools? Do whatever the hell you want.

Obviously, and especially in the Bible Belt (where I happen to have the unbelievably and sarcastically great fortune to live), we're always going to have the fanatical teachers who will claim the Bible to be an encyclopedia, and not a work of literature as it is.

Not to mention the fact that the parents of most students in public schools don't have the financial stability to send their children to private schools. Since they don't really have too much of a choice where they send their kids to school, methinks that teaching the Bible could be considered religious coercion in one way or another. Not to mention the influx of letters from angry parents the schools would have to deal with.

Besides, if the school systems decided to teach the Bible as an influential work of literature, they would also have to start teaching the Egyptian myth of Osiris and Isis as well as the several other religions that Christianity borrowed heavily from.

Six Billion of Spades

Familiar Phantom


AllieLeota

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:31 pm


I can see this being valid. Since so much of Western literature does make reference to biblical allusions and whatnot, I see nothing wrong with referring to those allusions and explaining the social importance in terms of the religion of the time and whatnot. Sort of the sociology of the literature.

However, as to actually teaching the Bible as a work of literature? It's not very good. It's great because it was influencial, and had an effect on absolutely everything, but even considering it's age, it's not as impressive as, say, Beowulf.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:38 pm


I agree with Semper Fiasco in the sense of if you're in a Public school part then no, and Private schooling: that they can do whatever the hell they want to.

No religion should be forced on someone. And really it shouldn't be in schools at all, because some get offened by the mere presence of a said religion.

Where I'm at now in SC I was really surprised that at this years graduation, they prayed. I really thought that was wrong, I don't care If we're in the bible belt or not, it shouldn't be done.

If someone really wanted to teach the bible or enforce it in someway they should make it an ellective for kids who actually want to take it.

Countess Pyrotika


2 Be Continued___

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:08 pm


I'm all for pointing out the allusions and discussing them in class. That's what happened in my English classes whenever a piece of literature alluded to a Biblical story. However, this plan to introduce Bible study in public schools so that kids can figure out the allusions to the Bible seems a little sneaky to me.
I remember reading this book with an essay arguing that the Bible should be taught in public schools because of the decreasing morality of society. Back then I was a Christian and still felt it wasn't right to teach the Bible in public schools, but my uber-religious friend wanted it. However, I'm sure that no one could get the Bible taught in school because of the freedom of religion part of the Bill of Rights.
The situation seems to me similar to the whole creationist/ID situation. They couldn't get creationism taught in school, so they tried to make it look like teaching ID was helpful for children because it taught kids to 'critically think' about the theory of evolution. In this situation, it seems that they couldn't get the Bible in public schools for moral reasons, so they are trying to get the Bible taught because it would help children understand historical events and allusions made in literature and pop culture.
Anyway, if kids can't figure out an allusion to the Bible, they could attend church and/or read the Bible themselves (they can buy a Bible for a buck at Dollar Tree). Or, like Drucilla said, they can Google it!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:54 pm


Question, though-if schools started teaching more contemporary literature, would we have as many stories with Biblical allusions? Furthermore, how many books actually do contain them? This does seem a bit like a legal way to preach Christianity. If you have one book with a few references, then why even bother?

writercxvii
Captain


Countess Pyrotika

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:34 pm


writercxvii
Question, though-if schools started teaching more contemporary literature, would we have as many stories with Biblical allusions? Furthermore, how many books actually do contain them? This does seem a bit like a legal way to preach Christianity. If you have one book with a few references, then why even bother?

Since most of the old literature had more Biblical references, If we did in fact start reading more contemporary things, then I would think that not only our intellegence level would drop, since back in the days of old, they tended to use more intellectual words and phrases, more or less a higher vocabulary, so I wouldn't mind If said books were to be in curriculums, maybe if some didn't want to read it for a religious reason then they could say so.

On the other hand I really don't think God or any other deity should be in any school (Unless you're going to school for that specific reason, like some colleges but that's different and it's the persons own choice).

I mean I really don't know...I'm just another person with a somewhat useless opinion.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:58 pm


writercxvii
Question, though-if schools started teaching more contemporary literature, would we have as many stories with Biblical allusions? Furthermore, how many books actually do contain them? This does seem a bit like a legal way to preach Christianity. If you have one book with a few references, then why even bother?

Another question would be if we read books from other cultures, would we have as many stories with Biblical allusions? Also, would it hurt if we did read literature from other cultures? The only things I remember reading in middle and high school from the Eastern hemisphere were haikus (way to stereotype an entire hemisphere rolleyes ). I know that teachers have a limit of time to spend on books, but it might not hurt to replace one book from the Western hemisphere with a book written by someone in from the Eastern hemisphere.
Anyway, contemporary literature probably do have some allusions to the Bible but I doubt as many as Shakespeare, who supposedly alluded to the Bible 1,300. When it comes to Shakespeare (who is pretty much required reading/watching in public schools) no class in a public high school teaches all works of Shakespeare. Children read Hamlet, Macbeth, Othello and a few other works by Shakespeare, but I don't think an average high school class have books with enough allusions to the Bible (including Shakespeare) to really justify teaching the Bible in its own seperate course. If public teachers tried to balance the old and Western literature with contemporary and/or Eastern, then there would be even less reason to teach it.

2 Be Continued___


AllieLeota

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:51 am


writercxvii
Question, though-if schools started teaching more contemporary literature, would we have as many stories with Biblical allusions? Furthermore, how many books actually do contain them? This does seem a bit like a legal way to preach Christianity. If you have one book with a few references, then why even bother?


A lot of books these days have atheistic or anti-religious themes. Or are questioning of the initial precepts of faith and morality in subtle interesting ways. To fully understand these, you need context, which the Bible actually helps with. Of course, I'm thinking more along the lines of the sociology of Biblical interpretation than the Bible as a work, but the point still holds.
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Southern Parisian Catacomb Stalkers

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