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To me, the whole debate draws down to the competing rights of Woman vs. Fetus, viz.:

Right of the Woman to Bodily Domain vs. Fetus Right to Survive.

The former is existent but the latter is nonexistent and is currently being striven for by Pro-lifers everywhere.

To me, I guess, it's seems like any form of human life deserves to live or at least have a chance of living.

American wise, I think the phrase "All men are created equal" is pretty much the basis of rights here in the states, specifically our inalienable rights. Is not a unique human life created when there is a set of duplicable DNA? So shouldn't it be guaranteed life?

The clash of apparent rights is an ugly one; even in my head, I'm not sure what to believe...thoughts?

Go ahead and kill the damn thing if the women wants to. and think about all the stuff the alleged child won't have to go through in life, like arguing about this.

You realize that the spectrum of women seeking abortions is much larger that rape victims and teenage sluts, right? Why should they (or even the slut) be denied an abortion in the timeframe you've given? Not only that, but what is the purpose on forcing them to raise it?

But the "consequence" in this situation is a potential person. It sounds pretty cruel to force someone to keep a kid, or go through a pregnancy as a punishment. But it sounds like a good way to foster resentment, if that's what you're into.



So it seems you have trouble grasping the difference between ending a sentient life and not allowing a potential life to reach sentience. That's the difference between abortion and murder. And not all unplanned pregnancies happen as a result of consenting, unprotected sex. Condoms break, pills get missed, sometimes even vasectomies and tubals fail. Not everyone has access to, or is even educated about the morning after pill.

Sometimes abortion is taking responsibility. Sometimes it is even less responsible to have a kid. And don't start with me about adoption or foster care. That can be a fate worse than not being born at all.



Do you even know how many abortions are the result of unprotected sex? I can't find any statistics, but my guess is that most women don't deliberately avoid protection because they can just waltz into the abortion clinic any time they want and get an abortion. Abortion isn't exactly cheap, and it's not a walk in/walk out procedure. And once again, do you think growing up knowing that you were an accident and that your parents didn't want you, but they were forced to have you anyway, would make you feel very good? Or do you just hope that every woman who is made to bear a child against her will, will magically love and want that child after it's born? Please.



Children as consequences, how nice. Who benefits?



Gee, thanks, how big of you. So do you propose taking pregnant women to court to determine how they wound up pregnant, and then granting or denying them the right to control their own bodies from there? Do you realize how much this will cost and how much this will tie up the already overflowing courts?



Can we have the right to "forfeit responsibility" by putting it up for adoption? And uh, we actually don't get our rights til birth. Birth means when you are born, not when you are gestating. Are you really telling me that a tadpole is more important than a grown woman?

You have just discovered you have a foreign entity inside your body. Why should you be forced to play host to it against your will? Can you imagine how terrifying that could be? If you agree that it is wrong to force someone to give up a kidney, why should they be forced to give up their uterus, hell, their whole body and life for the next 18 years?



Because it's only a potential life. It's not viable on it's own. And it's not even sentient, so it doesn't even know it exists. And if it's inside my body, it's my business what I decide to do with it.



OK.



Not everyone has the money to raise a kid, or support from their family, or a partner, a work ethic, is able to handle money, good mental health, a place to live, etc. Sometimes it is better not to subject a child to that. You can only look at it through rose colored glasses and think all these problems can be solved and everyone will skip off into the sunset but sometimes nothing works out, ever. Sometimes, way too often, things don't turn out for the best. Go visit a homeless or battered woman's shelter sometime and report back to me what you see.



OK.



Good, great. What about people whose parents use that fact to constantly push them down and make them feel like s**t? I have a friend whose dad refuses to call him by his name and instead calls him "George", because he is named after his dad, and his dad considers him a mistake and a disgrace to his name. And he is not OK.



If you were aborted then they wouldn't be your parents. You would never know you were aborted.



If you force the woman to go through the pregnancy, then yes, it will be a child. While it is gestating, it is called a fetus.



OK



Well, I don't think so, but what are you going to do about women who just plain do not want children? You can sterilize them but accidents DO happen, even with vasectomies and tubal ligations; it's rare, but it happens. Are you going to force these women to all keep these unwanted kids, then possible abuse or neglect them themselves? Do you realize what kind of mess we would have if abortion was totally illegal, and the option to adopt out is also taken from us? Dude, I am starting to get the feeling that you hate women.



But why should a fetus get any rights at all? It cannot think, feel, or survive on it's own. Hell yes I am hostile, you are talking about taking away my right to control my own life and body! When you are not even a woman and have no clue what it's like to be pregnant and alone with no help or support from anyone. Of course I am going to get defensive. Losing my right to decide whether or not I have kids is a terrifying prospect.

In the case of in vitro fertilization, you would be "putting it there". If I deliberately tried to get pregnant, why would I then want to end the pregnancy? Abortion happens when pregnancy is unintended or unwanted.



No, it is a potential human. Until it is viable on it's own, it is like a tumor or parasite. You may think that sounds terrible, but a fetus is no more a human than my liver is a human.



First, I would like to ask why human life is so much more important than any other life. Second, I just don't get this "give it a chance to live". A chance to live like what? A chance to grow up and get stuck with an unwanted kid just like mom and dad because now abortion is illegal and you have no choice if your contraception fails?



OK, even more reason for some people to NOT have kids. What is your point here?



Oh come on. Have you ever heard of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs? Children need more than food and shelter, they also need love and support. Maybe your GF is an android, but most people need to be loved and wanted in order to feel safe and happy.



If you were aborted, you wouldn't feel anything. Now, if your mother had killed you after you were born, that would be cruel. But up until the 2nd trimester, it's not a kid. It has no consciousness. It won't care if you abort it.



My kidneys are a form of human life. You are grasping at straws here.



Yup, so just leave it alone. If abortion was illegal, we would be in a helluva mess. If people don't want kids, don't force 'em to. It is more cruel, I think, to beat your kid and raise him to loathe himself than to not bring the child into the world at all.



Yeah that's pretty weak. Since you have this overwhelming love for humankind, why don't you go volunteer at a homeless shelter, or with Food Not Bombs or something? Join the Peace Corps, maybe.



But I DIDN'T PUT IT THERE. Women get abortions not because they hate human life, or because they like to kill their potential offspring, but because they accidentally wound up pregnant. Not because they put it there on purpose. WTH?



If you want think that was a personal attack, fine, but it is true that you are not a woman and you will never experience this situation, not do you seem to have the slightest idea what it's like. You make that blatantly obvious with your "But you put it there!" arguments. Finding out that you have an unwanted pregnancy is life changing and often terrifying. The choice to abort, or go through with it, or adopt it out is extremely hard and stressful. But it is so nice to have that choice. I am really grateful that I still do.

I view pregnancy rather like sex. It's all fine and dandy if it's something you want. Sure, it's beautiful, it's magical, it's precious. But if it's something unwanted, it suddenly becomes this terrible, disgusting thing.

It is not my place to tell other women what to do with their bodies, just because I happen to disagree with what they're doing with them. The unborn fetus may be "a human life" but it is not cognizant to the abortion process, and will not experience any pain.

Besides, if we're getting all philosophical, I believe that those aborted pregnancies were never meant to be, anyway, and if there is a soul at stake in the process, it will come back in another time and place. Reincarnation, if that's the word you want to use. 3nodding

Dangit. I'm ALMOST sick of this topic. Don't get me wrong, it's a valid discussion but it's been done so many times. I don't blame it being posted in this guild, though. Bad thing about us (meaning members of this guild), the majority of the members here seem pretty strong willed, so I don't think many minds will be changed about this topic.

Hmmm... now for my input.

One thing that a lot of people seem to focus on is the want vs. the law. It seems to me that people want to make abortion a law in some sort of way, being the foundation of most arguments. Maybe without the person even realizing it. They say "Blah blah blah shouldn't be able to get an abortion because of blah blah blah." Key word being 'able', as in they shouldn't have a choice. Who is going to stop them? Surly not the doctor.
I say "Blah blah blah shouldn't WANT to get an abortion because of blah blah blah."

Yes, you should want to get an abortion if you were raped, will die if put through the birth, ect.
No, you shouldn't want to get an abortion if you can have a healthy birth.
No, you shouldn't want to get an abortion if you are responsible for becoming pregnant.


But this being said, I believe that a mother that does not want her baby should not be forced to keep it. What use would that be. Sure, the thing would have life, but you never know if that child will be abused all of it's life and what-not (I don't feel like listing all the posibilities). Why not give it to a family that would LOVE a baby and cannot themselves have one?