Anyway, I thought I'd share my responses with all of you in case you have no idea how to answer it and feel free to share your knowledge on the subject and thoughts on my responses. I know it's short and I sort of rushed through my explanations, that's something I'll need to work on in the future but it's a start, which is all it was supposed to be xd
I know this subforum is for preparation for debate with protestants but this is a big one that I run into a lot when it comes to non-Christians. Sorry if you'd rather not have this posted here sweatdrop It just seemed important and I see a lot of Christians stumble over it.
Quote:
Part I: On the Historicity of Jesus (the basics):
First and foremost I think it very important to keep in mind the status of Jesus during the time period both within and outside of Palestine, under the assumption that he did exist. Jesus became posthumously famous, during his life he was relatively unknown and that became even truer as you move further outside of his sphere of influence. He was just another man out of the many that the Romans had crucified so the question you all need to be thinking about isn’t why there is so little information on Jesus, but why there is so much supporting evidence outside of the bible, through oral tradition (and yes that is accepted as valid when it comes to recording history assuming certain precepts were satisfied) and through written works. We’ll start with the latter:
Josephus: Yes I do dare to use his name. I don’t know how many are familiar with him or ‘his’ notorious paragraph concerning Jesus in his Antiquities of the Jews:
I don’t really understand those who would cite him without a word of caution, that paragraph is widely accepted by scholars as an insertion later on made by Christian Scribes. The reason why I cite him is because of the likelihood that he had mentioned Jesus, or at the very least a Christ figure since Christians would have most likely inserted that passage after John the Baptist was mentioned if they were just randomly creating instead of embellishing, either way I wanted to clear things up when it comes to Josephus as a source. It’s iffy and hardly evidence but suggestive especially since all of the manuscripts that we do have contain the exact same insertion…
Then you have Chapter 20 which also mentions a man named Jesus, called Christ who was also the brother of James:
Talmud: I almost forgot about this one, it’s something I haven’t really looked into too much so I’m not sure where it stands in the scheme of things but there is mention of a Yeshu (who is thought by some to be the Christian Jesus) who was born to a woman out of wedlock who was seduced by a Roman soldier, he performed ‘magic’ and was executed on the eve of Passover.
http://judaism.about.com/od/beliefs/a/jesus.htm
Tacitus: For those of you who are unfamiliar with Tacitus, he was a Roman historian who was born in the middle of the first century. His work that concerns us is located in Annals 15 (44)
The Majority of Scholars do not question the authenticity of this passage but a few do. I think one of the issues has to do with Tacitus referring to Pontius Pilate as a procurator when he was actually a prefect. That and there are no references made by early Christians to the passage in Annals concerning the Christians but neither really take away from the fact that the above passage is nothing like what you see in the forged writing made in Josephus’ Antiquities which is very Christian friendly. The passage in Annals is not since tortures were inflicted on the Christians who are a ‘class hated’ which is done for their ‘abominations’. Does that really sound like an insert made by a Christian Scribe? It doesn't add up.
I think I’ll leave it here for now (I'm still short on time but I'll be back, there's much much more to tell). If what you all are looking for is some recorded evidence straight from the hand of Jesus then I’m afraid you’re going to be disappointed. If you think that that is what is needed to establish the historical Christ then I’m afraid you are a fool. I did not get into the oral tradition, I did not get into early Christian texts, I did not mention the greatest source the New Testament of the bible and more specifically the gospels which consist of a compilation of different pericopes set into larger groupings which were not just written all at once as some people seem to think it was. You guys asked for written evidence outside of the bible and I provided you with some of it, it is there, the evidence is there and it's stacked upon a hell of a lot of supporting evidence so deny that if you will but don’t be stupid, at least recognize it first and realize that a culture so heavily dependent upon oral tradition is not going to have people running around with pen and paper in hand writing down every little detail. The fact that we have what we have speaks volumes.
Sources:
The Historical Figure of Jesus by E.P. Sanders Penguin Books 1995
Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm
Josephus. Antiquities of the Jews. http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-18.htm
Tacitus. Annals 15. http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a15040.htm
Talmud (Yeshu) http://judaism.about.com/od/beliefs/a/jesus.htm
First and foremost I think it very important to keep in mind the status of Jesus during the time period both within and outside of Palestine, under the assumption that he did exist. Jesus became posthumously famous, during his life he was relatively unknown and that became even truer as you move further outside of his sphere of influence. He was just another man out of the many that the Romans had crucified so the question you all need to be thinking about isn’t why there is so little information on Jesus, but why there is so much supporting evidence outside of the bible, through oral tradition (and yes that is accepted as valid when it comes to recording history assuming certain precepts were satisfied) and through written works. We’ll start with the latter:
Josephus: Yes I do dare to use his name. I don’t know how many are familiar with him or ‘his’ notorious paragraph concerning Jesus in his Antiquities of the Jews:
Quote:
3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-18.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-18.htm
I don’t really understand those who would cite him without a word of caution, that paragraph is widely accepted by scholars as an insertion later on made by Christian Scribes. The reason why I cite him is because of the likelihood that he had mentioned Jesus, or at the very least a Christ figure since Christians would have most likely inserted that passage after John the Baptist was mentioned if they were just randomly creating instead of embellishing, either way I wanted to clear things up when it comes to Josephus as a source. It’s iffy and hardly evidence but suggestive especially since all of the manuscripts that we do have contain the exact same insertion…
Then you have Chapter 20 which also mentions a man named Jesus, called Christ who was also the brother of James:
Quote:
and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-20.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-20.htm
Talmud: I almost forgot about this one, it’s something I haven’t really looked into too much so I’m not sure where it stands in the scheme of things but there is mention of a Yeshu (who is thought by some to be the Christian Jesus) who was born to a woman out of wedlock who was seduced by a Roman soldier, he performed ‘magic’ and was executed on the eve of Passover.
http://judaism.about.com/od/beliefs/a/jesus.htm
Tacitus: For those of you who are unfamiliar with Tacitus, he was a Roman historian who was born in the middle of the first century. His work that concerns us is located in Annals 15 (44)
Quote:
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a15040.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a15040.htm
The Majority of Scholars do not question the authenticity of this passage but a few do. I think one of the issues has to do with Tacitus referring to Pontius Pilate as a procurator when he was actually a prefect. That and there are no references made by early Christians to the passage in Annals concerning the Christians but neither really take away from the fact that the above passage is nothing like what you see in the forged writing made in Josephus’ Antiquities which is very Christian friendly. The passage in Annals is not since tortures were inflicted on the Christians who are a ‘class hated’ which is done for their ‘abominations’. Does that really sound like an insert made by a Christian Scribe? It doesn't add up.
I think I’ll leave it here for now (I'm still short on time but I'll be back, there's much much more to tell). If what you all are looking for is some recorded evidence straight from the hand of Jesus then I’m afraid you’re going to be disappointed. If you think that that is what is needed to establish the historical Christ then I’m afraid you are a fool. I did not get into the oral tradition, I did not get into early Christian texts, I did not mention the greatest source the New Testament of the bible and more specifically the gospels which consist of a compilation of different pericopes set into larger groupings which were not just written all at once as some people seem to think it was. You guys asked for written evidence outside of the bible and I provided you with some of it, it is there, the evidence is there and it's stacked upon a hell of a lot of supporting evidence so deny that if you will but don’t be stupid, at least recognize it first and realize that a culture so heavily dependent upon oral tradition is not going to have people running around with pen and paper in hand writing down every little detail. The fact that we have what we have speaks volumes.
Sources:
The Historical Figure of Jesus by E.P. Sanders Penguin Books 1995
Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm
Josephus. Antiquities of the Jews. http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-18.htm
Tacitus. Annals 15. http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a15040.htm
Talmud (Yeshu) http://judaism.about.com/od/beliefs/a/jesus.htm
COPY AND PASTED FROM HERE
