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Annalixa
Captain

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:09 am


(NOTE: I just copied this from the thread I link to in my sig. If you haven't seen it before, well, you can check it out here.)

What if I told you I didn't use shampoo when I washed my hair?

"Ew, gross!" or something would be your reaction, perhaps. Well, there's just as much gross stuff in shampoo. More importantly, that stuff is very often damaging to your hair and scalp.

Also to clarify: no poo is not for everyone, nor does using shampoo make you inferior. Some hair types need special kinds of shampoo. And if you are using salon-level products, they are designed with hair health in mind.

But, generally speaking:

The commercial shampoo you buy at the grocery or drug store contains ingredients (namely mineral oil, sodium lauryl sulfate, and sodium laureth sulfate, as well as nasty stuff called parabens) that are damaging to your hair; many people find an improvement in hair health and a decrease in hair maintenance costs by switching to no poo. This does not take into account special hair types, styles, medical conditions, etc.

Anyway, I'm just going to use this thread as an infodump and place to chart my own no 'poo progress and experience. If you also use no poo, feel free to share your own experiences with it, offer tips, etc. If you're curious or confused by anything, feel free to ask about it. 3nodding


UPDATE: I am going through the thread and deleting posts that are just "u guys r dirty hippys" and the like. This is ED, you trolling morons. If you want to call any of us any names, then take it elsewhere.

IN THE MAKING: A QUICK AND DIRTY NO POO FAQ:

1. I have dyed hair! What should I do for a no 'poo regimen?
2. I have really fine/fragile/damaged hair! What should I do for a no 'poo regimen?
3. I have terrible dandruff! Help!
4. I have especially ethnic (Asian, African American, etc) hair! What do I need to do differently? (coming soon)
5. My hair is really greasy! What would you recommend?

(at the end of the post)

* * * * * * *


Why commercial shampoo is icky.



Quote:
Most shampoos contain mineral oil. A byproduct of the distillation of gasoline from crude oil, mineral oil is what's left over. It's so abundant that it costs more to dispose of it then it does to package and sell it, so it ends up everywhere. It's added to shampoos and conditioners to give hair an artificial shine caused by coating it with a thick oil. Mineral oil cannot absorb into your skin like other oils do, so it sits on top and forms a barrier preventing oils and toxins from being released as a normal part of your skin's lifecycle. This is one of the reasons you'll find that the more shampoo you use, the more often you need to use it. In the long run, coating your hair with mineral oil makes it weaker, and more prone to damage.

If mineral oil doesn't bother you, maybe the other ingredients will. SLS and SLFS (sodium lauryl sulfate, sodium laureth sulfate) are skin and eye irritants that also acts as a foaming agent in soaps, shampoos, toothpastes, dishwashing liquid... and just about anything that produces a foamy lather. The Materials Safety Data Sheet cautions to avoid body contact with SLS, it also puts infants and children (whose eye are developing at a more rapid rate) at risk for improper eye development when it's absorbed through the skin and accumulates in eye tissues. Because of residual levels in internal organs, it's questioned how safe our current rates of exposure are. "Debunkers", and companies who sell products containing these ingredients claim that the short exposure (shampoo and rinse) isn't enough for it to build up, and that by itself, in the dilution present within the product, the ingredient won't cause damage. This is basically true, however neither take into account recent reports (within the last five years), exposure due to the amount of products which contain SLS/SLFS and how often we use them, and the known chemical reaction with other ingredients commonly found in these products. While not carcinogens, both these substances, when mixed with other ingredients commonly found in shampoo bottles, may cause carcinogenic nitrates to form. Using it in moderation, and even in high amounts probably isn't going to kill you - but it's certainly not improving your health. The suggested safe percentage of SLS or SLFS to be used in products like shampoo and toothpaste isn't adhered to as often as it should be.

In its final report on the safety of sodium lauryl sulfate, the Journal of the American College of Toxicology notes that this ingredient has a "degenerative effect on the cell membranes because of its protein denaturing properties." What's more, the journal adds, "high levels of skin penetration may occur at even low use concentration."

Interestingly, sodium lauryl sulfate "is used around the world in clinical studies as a skin irritant," notes the journal. The publication expressed additional concerns:

* Carcinogenic nitrosamines can form in the manufacturing of sodium lauryl sulfate or by its inter-reaction with other nitrogen-bearing ingredients within a formulation utilizing this ingredient.
* Other studies have indicated that sodium lauryl sulfate enters and maintains residual levels in the heart, liver, lungs and brain from skin contact. This poses the question whether it could be a serious potential health threat from its use in shampoos, cleansers, and toothpastes.
* Still other research has indicated sodium lauryl sulfate may be damaging to the immune system, especially within the skin. Skin layers may separate and inflame due to its protein denaturing properties.
* Although sodium lauryl sulfate is not carcinogenic in experimental studies, it has been shown that it causes severe epidermal changes in the area it is applied, indicating a need for tumor-enhancing assays.
* Additional studies have found that sodium lauryl sulfate is heavily deposited on the skin surface and in the hair follicles. Damage to the hair follicle could result from such deposition


From here: No Poo Basics

But wait! That's not all--

Jen at IdealBite.com
What types of products contain [parabens]? The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) recently reported that they have found synthetic hormone-disrupting chemicals in shampoo, preservatives, hair coloring agents, sunscreens, fragrances and pharmaceuticals. These chemicals are washed into our water every day and, as a result, they never go away -- they are persistent because of daily replenishment via bathing, swimming and urination. Sadly, of the 80,000 plus chemicals used in products, just a tiny fraction were ever fully tested for toxicity, let alone for their hormone interference potential. Currently, toxicity tests required by the government do not evaluate endocrine disrupting effects, so even so-called "tested chemicals" can have unidentified hazardous health effects. You should be aware that the phrases "no known toxicity" or "no known health effects" do not necessarily mean that a substance is harmless.

Top 4 Ingredients to Avoid

1. Phthalates: These chemicals get covered up on labels by the general term "fragrance," which the FDA permits to protect "trade secrets." But they're readily absorbed by our fingernails, skin and lungs. This July, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported finding the metabolized forms of dibutyl phthalates, used in nail polish and synthetic fragrance, in every person tested in their national "body burden" study. Studies have found that phthalates can lead to liver cancer and birth defects in lab animals, and now research into the effects on humans is beginning to emerge.

For example, a study from the University of Minnesota published in the May 2005 Environmental Health Perspectives, found a connection between phthalates and genital abnormalities in baby boys. Researchers measured the level of phthalates in the urine of 85 pregnant women and found that mothers with high levels of phthalates gave birth to boys with one or more developmental issues, including problems such as smaller penises and scrotums or less developed testicles. Although Dr. Christine Ternand, one of the study's authors and an assistant professor of clinical medicine at the University of Minnesota, said it was "premature" to instruct women to avoid these chemicals altogether, she added, "If I were pregnant or trying to get pregnant, I would reduce my exposure-and my fetus's exposure-to products containing phthalates."

To reduce exposures to phthalates, steer clear of shampoos and conditioners listing "fragrance" as an ingredient. Although some manufacturers have recently declared that they've removed phthalates from their products (see below), in the absence of specific labeling it remains unclear to what extent, and in which products, this is actually the case. Instead, choose products whose labels list only non-synthetic fragrancing ingredients, such as essential oils of lavender, mint or verbena. And before trying any new cosmetic product, do a touch-and-sniff test, since natural oils can cause irritation or allergic reactions in some people.

2. Parabens (methyl-, propyl-, ethyl- and butyl): Some studies have shown that parabens mimic estrogen in rodents; the chemicals also have been shown to stimulate growth of human breast-cancer cells in the lab.

3. Coal Tar: In 1993, the FDA issued a warning to consumers about coal tar being a possible cancer risk. Coal tar appears in many hair dyes and strong dandruff and psoriasis shampoos, but the FDA failed to ban it even though studies have linked it to cancer in lab animals. The EWG found that 71 hair-dye products contained ingredients derived from coal tar. John Masters of John Masters Organics, a New York City hair stylist for 30 years, says that he shuns the use of coal tars in his hair dyes for his own safety and the safety of his clients and staff. "The skin absorbs 70 percent of what we put on it. It's important that people know what they're applying and taking into their body," Masters says.

4. Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (SLS) and Sodium Laureth Sulfate (SLES) are found in some shampoos and conditioners and may cause hair loss and scalp irritation.


From IdealBite.com.

* * * * * * *


So what can you use instead?


Simply rinsing your hair with water (first warm, then cold), actually does most, if not all, of the cleaning your hair really needs. You can also try one of these options below to get rid of extra dirt and build up. When using the poo substitutes, be sure to use them at the roots and scrub them into the scalp. This even goes for regular shampoo and conditioner: shampoo is for your scalp, conditioner is for your hair.

*Most people use baking soda (not baking POWDER), at a max concentration of one tablespoon of baking soda per cup of water, usually less. I've seen as little as half a table spoon to two cups. Baking soda is a STRONG cleaner for your hair, so too much WILL be damaging to it. Don't use this baking soda concentration every time you shower! Two times a week is the recommended frequency.

*Castile soap (like Dr. Bronner's) at a ratio of one part soap, one part water. I tried this myself and wasn't wild about the result, but other people swear by it.

Ainslie Ennis
I use 4 cups water, when it comes to a boil, remove from heat and steep three to four rounded tablespoons of chamomile flowers and three rounded tablespoons of lavender buds. Let it steep for about a half hour. Strain and add 3/4 cups grated castile. Return it to the heat until the castile is melted. When its cool put it into a bottle. You can add a few drops of French lavender essential oil and a tiny amount of jojoba.

Sometimes I have trouble with tangles so I'll use an apple cider vinegar rinse-one tablespoon to one cup of water, but my hair tends to be oily so I usually skip the rinse and the jojoba unless my hair gets too dry in the winter. I used to have to over condition my hair so I could get a comb through it, but I haven't used a conditioner in a couple of years now.



*Sea salt, again similar levels to baking soda. The most common recipe I've seen is half a tablespoon to two cups of water.

*Rice water. Rinse your hair with distilled water that's had a few grains of rice sitting in it overnight (take out the rice BEFORE you rinse your hair! wink )

*Lye soap. I haven't read much about this personally, but I imagine mixtures similar to that of the castile soap (one part soap, one part water).

*Check out some of the organic shampoos linked to in the FAQ. There is a huge variety to choose from. All are SLS/SLFS and mineral oil free.

*Alternatively, you can just drop shampoo in your showers and only use regular commercial conditioner.

*Or if you still want to use your regular shampoo, you can mix baking soda with it to help get rid of crap:

frugalliving.about.com

n your hand, mix hair shampoo with a small amount of baking soda. Shampooing with this mixture easily removes old and heavy hair spray/spritz, etc., residue. From another reader: If you mix baking soda and shampoo in your hand once a week it will not only remove all hair spray, styling gels, and other products;it will remove impurities from the water and actually lighten your hair. i learned this from my hair stylist and it really works!



People generally pair one of these above washes with a vinegar rinse regimen as well, usually either apple cider vinegar or white vinegar. These solutions are about one to two tablespoons of vinegar to cup of water. You don't need the vinegar rinses as much as the baking soda, perhaps only every two to three washes. These act as conditioners, as well as being good clarifiers.


With any of these methods, there will be what's called a "detox period." The shampoo you've been using before was stripping your scalp bare of the oils it naturally produces. As a result, your scalp produced even MORE oils--that's why you find you have to wash every day. But as soon as you stop, you won't be stripping nearly as much oil from your scalp as you were before, so the extra grease will remain (hence the detox period). Eventually, your scalp will compensate and stop producing as much.

If you are going to try no 'poo, check out the link I posted at the beginning, as well as the others in the FAQ. Also, the important thing to remember is that everyone reacts to things differently, depending on body chemistry, hair type, etc. You will have to do a little experimenting with the ratios in any of these to find out what makes your hair happy.

* * * * * * *


Pictures!

http://community.livejournal.com/no_poo/tag/photographs+of+our+hair

If you want to see other people's results with no poo. smile

* * * * * * *


THE QUICK AND DIRTY NO POO FAQ:


First of all, here are some good links for information:

arrow Wikipedia: Hair

arrow Wikipedia: Mineral Oil

arrow Wikipedia: SLS

arrow Wikipedia: SLFS

arrow The no_poo LJ community

arrow No poo basics (from earlier in this post)

arrow More no poo basics + testimonial

arrow Wikipedia: Sodium Bicarbonate (which is to say, baking soda)

arrow Wikipedia: Apple Cider Vinegar

arrow Wikipedia: White Vinegar

arrow Wikipedia: Traditional/Anecdotal Uses for Vinegar

arrow Shikakai (dandruff treatment)


Here are some good links for general organicy/natural product goodness:

arrow Kirk's Natural Care Products (variety of natural shampoos and soaps)

arrow Dr. Bronner's Magic Soap

arrow Marie's Soaps ( "If you wouldn't put it in your mouth, don't put it on your skin!")

arrow J.R. Liggett's (natural shampoos from 100% vegetable oils, no detergents, comes in bars)

arrow LUSH organic shampoos (contains ammonium lauryl sulfate, a foaming agent similar to SLS, but nothing else)

arrow Natural Salon Hair Care by Jason

arrow Stewart's Crafts & Homemade Lye Soaps

arrow Max Green Alchemy Cosmetics Certified vegan/cruelty-free organic hair and skin care products.


And now for questions:

arrow I have dyed hair! What should I do for a no poo regimen?

Baking soda will strip colour just as fast, or even faster, as a regular commercial shampoo + conditioner wash. Red and red-based dyes seem to be the biggest culprit here in terms of fading. What I would suggest (based on what I've read about other people's hair experience) is:

1. Dilute the amount of baking soda you are using, since that fades colour.

2. Increase (not TOO much) the apple cider vinegar concentration you are using, since apple cider vinegar actually DARKENS colour. White vinegar, like baking soda, will lighten it.

3. Try to decrease the frequency of washings. A "frequent" washing with baking soda is two times a week, so cut it down to maybe once a week, or once every five days...you get the picture.

4. You might try switching to simple water or rice water rinses, instead of using baking soda at all.

arrow I have really fine/fragile/damaged hair! What should I do for a no poo regimen?

Generally, the advice for those with dye jobs is the same for you as well. You might also want to try one or both of these recipes, taken from prettydark on LiveJournal:

prettydark
Hot Oil Treatment
1 tsp almond oil
1 drop lavender essential oil
1 drop rosemary essential oil
Mix in shot glass with a toothpick. Heat the shot glass inside a shallow bowl of hot water. Apply to the length of your dry hair, concentrating on dry or damaged ends. Leave on as long as possible for maximum benefit before rinsing well and following with a wash and rinse. Your hair may undergo an oily period after this treatment, but it can vastly improve the texture of your hair for longer than any residual 'oiliness'.

Protein Humectant Pack
1 room temperature egg, strained through mesh
1 tbsp honey (I use wildflower honey from my area.)
1/4 tsp vitamin E oil suspension
1 tsp olive oil
Mix very well, and halve the mixture, placing one half into the freezer to keep for a later date. Saturate your dry hair with the eggy gloop, concentrating on dry or damaged areas. Let the pack dry on your hair. Rinse this out of your hair with cool to tepid water, NOT warm or hot, as this might cook eggs into your hair. After rinsing very well, follow with a wash and rinse. This mix is not a 'great smelling' substance, and I noticed an eggy smell for a few days afterward, but the texture of my hair was very much improved.



arrow I have terrible dandruff! help!

From Shakti Mouse, on about page 6 or so (I edited it a bit for length, etc):

Shakti Mouse

FYI dandruff is caused by a fungus related to candidia yeast living on your scalp. It would seem to me that going no poo and allowing the natural oils to heal the scalp would eventually cure your dandruff...as weakness in the scalp is what promotes dandruff appearing, when you scratch your head and use harsh chemicals on it you are likely to get small scalp abrasions that feed the yeast in the environment around all of us.

However, you might need to use a herbal antifungal rinse to get ride of the surface candidida infection that is causing the flakes...

Dandruff treatment using Fenugreek Seeds
The use of fenugreek seeds is one of the most important remedies in the treatment of dandruff. Two tablespoons of these seeds should be soaked overnight in water and ground into a fine paste in the morning. This paste should be applied all over the scalp and left for half an hour. The hair should then be washed thoroughly with soap-nut (ritha) solution or shikakai.


Dandruff treatment using Lime
The use of a teaspoon of fresh lime juice for the last rinse, while washing the hair, is another useful remedy. This not only leaves the hair glowing but also removes stickiness and prevents dandruff.

These both make sense as they work as anti fungals.


arrow I have especially ethnic (Asian, African American, etc) hair! What do I need to do differently?

THIS SPOT UNDER CONSTRUCTION

arrow My hair is really greasy! What would you recommend?

You're in luck (kind of), I have this same problem too, so I can speak from personal experience. What I did worked well enough for me. You might want to experiment to see if you can't find something that works even better.

For the first month, I just did straight water rinses. I couldn't get my hands on any baking soda, and also I was just curious about hair in its "natural" state. For the first three weeks it was pretty ugly, but towards the end of the fourth week it looked fine. Not fantastic, but I went out without a hat and without fear.

But if you really want to cut down on the grease, baking soda is the way to go. Castile soap reall funked my hair up something good, so I would recommend avoiding that. Once a week washing is fine, and if you find you have crap in your hair, vinegar is a good clarifier.

I also wouldn't recommend the conditioner-only washes. Since conditioner's job is to put MORE oil on the hair after the shampoo strips the scalp, you will probably just feel greasier. But perhaps if you go for it long enough, conditioner-only rinses will work for greasy hair, too.

If you're having days where your hair is just REALLY REALLY greasy, then cornstarch is a shortcut to looking good. It'll suck up all the grease, though whether it does anything to your scalp, I don't know. It doesn't itch or anything, I know that much.

But remember: greasy hair IS NOT dirty hair. As long as you are putting your hair under running water once a day and giving it a little scrub, it's clean.

more to come!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:03 pm


I found the guild through the thread you made in ED. heart

I'm currently using a natural shampoo. My hair can get so limp and annoying, so I was afraid of the detoxing period. gonk The shampoo I use is called "Nature's Gate", which apparently only uses a little SLS. I'm thinking of switching to Jasons', which has no SLS I think, after I finish up all of the current shampoo I have.

(Sadly.. When I went to visit my girlfriend with my sister in NJ, and we came back to MS on the plane.. they made me give up the Natural shampoo I bought in NJ. gonk I was so sad.)

Sylphiechu


Annalixa
Captain

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:26 am


Grrr airport security.

I just put my shampoo and conditioner in my checked luggage when I went to Stockholm. I got a friendly note from the HOMELAND SECURITY DEPARTMENT that they searched my luggage, but at least they didn't dump out my hair stuff.

Jason's doesn't have any SLS, I don't think. Neither does Green Max Alchemy. But even with the organic shampoos, I still think it's a good idea to avoid every day washes. One, your shampoo lasts longer, and two, it's better for your hair. My boyfriend uses shampoo maybe twice a week, and his hair looks fine for it. (He has REALLY BAD dandruff but that's a separate issue.) At school I would wash my hair maybe every third day and it looked fine. Undergrads don't always have time for a shampoo and conditioning rinse every day!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:35 am


Yeah, I only use shampoo every other day right now. 3nodding I'm thinking of going two days without and one day with instead, although my hair appears to get very limp when I don't have shampoo in a while. Is that because my hair is dependent on it and after giving it less shampoo after a while it will look better? :

Sylphiechu


Annalixa
Captain

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:15 am


I don't know.

You can try regularly spacing the washings out and seeing if it doesn't improve in time. Like wash your hair every third day for a few months and see what happens.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:30 pm


Heehee, oh dear, this guild is going to get me back into my natural hair care... I used to be very into it, because I was growing my hair out for locks of love. I ended up letting it grow a bit past my bum before cutting it to shoulder-length (surprisingly enough, I wasn't heartbroken over it and my head didn't even feel that much lighter!). I think I drove my family crazy with my requests for apple cider vinegar a refusal to blow-dry my hair. mrgreen Once I chopped it off, I was moving to college, so all the crazy changes that that entailed made taking the easy, beat-the-crap-out-of-your-hair route more appealing. Just reading this has made me want to at least go by organic shampoo, and who knows where I'll go from there!

Oh, and funny story--when I cut all that hair off, the hair stylist said "You're going to accidentally get a whole bunch of shampoo when you go to wash your hair for the first time!" and I was thinking, "No I'm not; my scalp is still the same size." blaugh

WeaselSnogger


Annalixa
Captain

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:30 pm


College is awful for hair stuff. $1 bottles of Suave are really appealing. gonk

You can always try water-only rinses. I did that for months and my hair was fine.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:13 pm


I thought about making my own shampoo but the ingredients was really expensive. Maybe I shouln' get too fancy and try some stuff listed above. That's what people originally used before the introduction of chemical infested shampoo, isn't it? There is a website that lists majority of shampoo with its harmful ingredients, and has least harmful ones as recommendation. I wonder where the link went. *rummages* I'm currently using giovannie.... one of the most expensive brand but I get it in bulk, which cuts the cost in half. whee

Aim-s


Annalixa
Captain

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:12 pm


I'm no expert, but my best guess would be that people would use lye-based soaps for both skin and shampoo before commercial shampoo arrived. I don't really know when the distinction between soap and shampoo was first made. Time for research!

According to Wikipedia, it seems to be around the 1700s, when shampoo was just boiled soap shavings with added herbs and fragrances. But the first modern shampoo as we know them today wasn't developed until 1930.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:12 pm


This lady at Saturday Market sold me a handmade soap for washing hair, and it has lessened the damage from the shampoo I was using before. (I tried Dr.Bronner but it was WAY too harsh. Great for body scrub though) and just yesterday I tried the baking soda, and WOW, my hair is lighter with more volume! It was so limpy and lifeless before.... I'm so happy! I think I'll try the apple cider vineger next time. I also brushed my hair while it was wet with geovannie conditioner, and it didn't tangle! I have a almost waste long black hair so I always hurt my hair by literally ripping it off every morning. I didn't realize how brushing while hair is wet is so helpful..... sweatdrop

Aim-s


Annalixa
Captain

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:17 pm


Aim-s
This lady at Saturday Market sold me a handmade soap for washing hair, and it has lessened the damage from the shampoo I was using before. (I tried Dr.Bronner but it was WAY too harsh. Great for body scrub though) and just yesterday I tried the baking soda, and WOW, my hair is lighter with more volume! It was so limpy and lifeless before.... I'm so happy! I think I'll try the apple cider vineger next time. I also brushed my hair while it was wet with geovannie conditioner, and it didn't tangle! I have a almost waste long black hair so I always hurt my hair by literally ripping it off every morning. I didn't realize how brushing while hair is wet is so helpful..... sweatdrop


Brushing/combing while wet is SERIOUSLY helpful. Also before you shower as well. I don't have half the hair you do but it can still get so tangly. stressed
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:29 am


I'm going to try to find some bentonite clay. (Wiki) I've heard lots of good things about it from other people: reduced greasiness, lots of body and curl, long-lasting, etc, so I want to give it a go.

Annalixa
Captain


wuhah

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:26 pm


This thread is awesome! I'm so grateful that you put this here. I tried this baking soda washing and just knowing that I'm avoiding all those chemicals makes me feel so much cleaner.

I'm now trying to find alternatives to other stuff like toothpaste (I read some stuff about baking soda for that, but then it might wreck tooth enamel??), body wash, deodorant (again I tried baking soda since I'm really into baking soda now, but ehh not really strong enough) face wash (the oil thing didn't work for me because I don't have castor oil, lotion, soap, makeup (can't find like anything for this). Oh and stuff to wash clothes with!

I want to make my own stuff with natural ingredients that are preferrably widely available and inexpensive, so if anyone has any recipes that work for them I'd really appreciate knowing about them.
Thanks again for this great thread!!!!!!!!

heart heart heart
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:41 pm


I know this is an old post but I hope someone is still around to read this:

I finally found fenugreek seeds so I can do the dandruff treatment. Unfortunately noone seems to know what I'm talking about when I ask for shikakai or soap-nut. I looked at the links and maybe I'm blind but I can't see any online orders for it. Is there an alternative?

Burning Sosobra

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